019. - Jeremy O. Harris

All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian. And they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world. And they do it three times a week. Jason, does that sound familiar to you? We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place. All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcast. or watch on YouTube. Want to make a podcast? Spotify's got a platform that lets you make one super easily, then distribute it everywhere, and even earn money. We like that. All in one place for totally free. It's called Spotify for Podcasters. And here's how it works. Spotify for podcasters lets you record and edit podcasts right from your cellular telephone or your computer. So no matter what your setup is like, you can start creating today. Then you can distribute your podcast to Spotify and everywhere else, those other places that podcasts are heard. Video podcasts are also available on Spotify. And when you want to take conversations with your fans to the next level, Q&As and polls are the best way to get them talking. With Spotify for podcasters, you can earn money in a variety of ways, including ads and... and podcast subscriptions. And best of all, it's totally free. Zero catch. We've been using it ever since we started How Long Gone. And ever since I discovered Spotify for Podcasters, I feel like having the option of turning off the Q&As and the polls on the user dashboard has really helped boost my creativity and take it to another level. I highly recommend giving it a try. Download the Spotify for Podcasters app or go to www.spotify.com slash podcasters to get started.

hola hola hello tj hello it's me tj oh man i wondered who i was calling um really nice to talk to you big dog how you feeling go for tj um i tell you what i am i'm sizzling here in glendale it is hot bitch don't rub it in i don't even want to hear this bullshit so it's been in it's been in the mid 90s all week. I hope you catch Corona, honestly, with the shit. With the shit you're spewing at me, you deserve it. It's been a little tough adjusting to the heat, but we're getting there. It's been hard to try to figure out what time of the day is the best for tanning and stuff like that. Is it 11.30? Is it 12.30? But how's Montreal? Is it still hailing, or what's good? Oh, my God. If I could, you know, I want to kill you through the phone, Soldier Boy voice. No, it's fine. I mean, luckily, like I said, you guys are trying, but I'm still going to come out of this hotter than anybody else. So a little tan I can go get. Like, that ain't a big deal. I can pay somebody to come spray me in two weeks if I need it, you know? Yeah, soldier boy voice. I can get somebody to come spray you too. Also speaking, what if Chris Brown did a remix called Kill You Through the Phone? That'd be fine. We should sell that to him right now. We can't be giving this gold away for free, playboy. How many times do you think he's threatened to kill somebody over the phone? Oh, thousands. Countless. Countless times. Countless times. And, you know, and that's... That's coming from a Team Breezy podcast, too. Imagine what... This is not... Bitch, first of all, this is not... We do not fuck with Chris Brown at all on this side. He is trash. Breezy, baby. You're trash for even singing that. What do you do? Are you eating? What are you doing? No, I'm just having a little cold brew and...

We just finished eating some bomb fish burritos. It's a hot Cali day, so we picked up some chips and guac. We did a little shrimp and scallop burrito. Wash it down with a cold brewski. Go for a bike ride later. It's been tough. Wow. Well, today, what did I do? I woke up. My body felt awful from pushing myself too hard yesterday. I've been testing out running at night for a story I'm doing. So I went out last night in the streets after dark. It was pretty interesting. Did you bring a whistle or pepper spray or anything? Bitch, I got two hands, okay? And that's all I need out here. You think these French Canadians are going to come at me? They see Big American Man? They ain't fucking with me, dog. They ain't coming at me. Big American Man. but yeah so and but after i did i did a tough workout in the morning and ran at night it's just my body was feeling too i was hurting today that's a big two a day for you i know and it wasn't even that serious of a run but i just dude i'm just fucked up i'm killing myself out here you know what i mean there have been i i've i've i've been doing a little bit of the same um or the workout probably was not as intense as yours was but the fact that it's I'm doing it in 96 degrees. Yeah, that makes it hard. It's making me at least feel as if I'm working harder. I felt like I was going to puke a couple times, and I was like, oh, yeah, this is good. That's fire. That's fire. That's literally drugs. On my non-run days, I'm really getting into some classic. I'm doing 300 push-ups, 300 squats, and 300 sit-ups. 300 push-ups? Damn. Well, I split them up into 20, so I do 20 push-ups, and then I do five sets, all different styles, so diamond, wide, classic, inverted. Whatever you need, dog, I got you. Decline, yeah, whatever you need. I'm on the corner. Like, what you need? So you're doing decline, you're doing incline, you're doing triangles, you're doing pretty much everything but a one arm, more or less.

Yeah, I could probably do a one arm. I can do the clap pretty easily. I could do like 10 of those. But the one arm's tough because I'm left-handed. It really leans that way. You know what I mean? My right side, I could use some work. Your non-dominant hand. Exactly. But then after that, I pull the band out. You know what I'm saying? I got 50 pounds in the band. Wrap that around a pole. And we're doing a bunch of shit there, too. We're doing flies. We're doing... back shit we're doing curls we're doing kickbacks like you know what i mean back in the day you only used to pull a band out when it was time to get the bag yeah yeah hell yeah you've seen it tj tj knows tj knows that chris used to keep that big racks on it big racks um but otherwise yeah it still sucks quarantine still sucks um but i i uh i started reading um the sam mcfeeder's book uh about Punk, and it's really interesting. I really like it so far. I'm not familiar with it. Just like the history of punk? Sam McPheeters of Born Against fame. Oh. A prolific punk writer. It just came out pretty recently, and it's just kind of essays. But there's an amazing one about Green Day that really had me chuckling. Was it painting? Billy Joe and the boys in a positive light or not. It was more just like, they had a song about the founder of, uh, Gilman street dying of cancer after they were like multimillionaires. He's just like, are you guys serious? Are you guys serious? Like you, you, you, you have five records out and you're going to sell a hundred like diamond. And you're talking about some guy who died of cancer at 50. It's just like, it's an interesting, it's an interesting story. But also, I mean, I just think that like, it's a, I don't know. It's good so far. I really like it. That's the punk version of having white guilt, I guess. Yeah, 100%. But it's interesting so far. I just think this is a subject that's kind of hard to read about because it's so – and that's kind of what he says. There's so many, like, strains and different, like, sub, sub, sub genres that it's really tough to find, like, an appropriate – and he left the scene completely in 2004. So it focuses on, like – Same. Yeah, same. But it focuses on –

stuff that I remember pretty vividly, especially when it gets into the late 90s, early 2000s. I need to tell my NorCal crust bros about this new piece of literature. Yeah, tell them to take their Tesla down to City Lights books and they can comp now that they're millionaires from some startup they got in on early. I would also recommend the book. A different book from a different member of Born Against, Brooks Headley from Superiority Burger. His cookbook from a few years ago called Fancy Desserts. One of my favorite cookbooks. Really? That good? I bang hard with Superiority Burger. That's just a few blocks away. I go once a week probably. Did you just say Superiority Bogo? Bogo? I did baby talk for you because I think you're feeling a little brain dead. Yeah, that's good. Check out that book. I haven't cooked a single thing out of the book. It's all about how he makes these crazy, intricate, fancy desserts. But like all the stories of growing up and being in the band and touring, there's some good photos and shit. And he's a funny writer. So, you know, it's odd for me to recommend a book. Period. Well, it's a picture book, so I think that makes sense. Recipes are pretty short and kind of like bulleted lists, so I feel like you can probably get through that. Whereas a book with words and chapters and stuff is probably harder for you. And the pictures are bomb. I love bomb-y pics. That's cool. Bomb-y pics. Alright, well, I guess it's time to call our guest. Not to shorten the best part of the show. That's fine. But we're once again crossing the bloody pond, mate, to talk to superstar playwright and writer Jeremy O'Harris, who is – I don't actually know why he's in London, but he's in London. I reckon we'll find out.

Yeah, we're going to find out, see what he's been up to during the quarantine. I feel like he's got a lot of work happening because his career was kind of exploding as all this shit happened, if you're familiar with slave play and all the great press it got. So I would like to see – I don't really know any playwrights, TJ. I don't know about you, bro, but those aren't the circles I run in, really. Speak for yourself, sweetheart. Yeah, right. First of all, there's no playwrights in Los Angeles, that's for sure. A city so warm that it's killed off all culture. There's a couple local houses on Santa Monica. I think you're thinking of UBC, which is close. That's a different guy. All right. Let me give him a call. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by a new podcast from The Guardian. stateside with kai and carter this is covering a lot of our bases jason it's a it's trying to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's happening in the world and i know you particularly have quite a lot of questions a lot of questions but how often because we do this podcast three times a week and that's a sweet spot how many times do they do three times a week and i i have a feeling just based on the platform and these talking points that they're maybe going to be covering different stuff than we do that's just a guess the guardian is not some billionaire owned They're not afraid to say what they want to say, brother. Yeah, Rupert ain't sniffing around in what journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman are up to over there at Stateside. But yeah, listen wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch it on YouTube. It's three times a week. And who couldn't use more news? Especially when it's not from here, let's say. Give it a listen. Give it a listen. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Squarespace. Obviously, Jason, you and I spend a lot of time on the World Wide Web. So do our peers, our listeners, our friends, our colleagues. Obviously. Maybe even your parents if they're freaky. And if you're doing anything in the world, writing, taking pictures. I do topless boxing. You need a website. Exactly. A website that works, that does what it's supposed to do, that allows you to be creative but also business-minded.

Jason, there's one place to go for that, Squarespace. Yeah, Chris, I'm over here. I'm modifying calculators and putting Claude inside of them so you could cheat at school. And I just want a place where I could have everything all in one place. I can have the SEO tools so those future graduates can find me. And I'm able to accept, quote unquote, donations for my services that might be gray area. You know what I mean? And then email campaigns. Hey, I got a new 2.3 version upgrade. Boom, boom, boom. Get the analytics going. Raise some money. Show your investor all of your cool analytics of what's going on. They're going to want to get in early. And we can use Blueprint AI to make your website look as professional as your competition, if not more. So head to squarespace.com slash howlong for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use offer code howlong to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain. All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Quince. Jason, the temps are warming up. It's getting hot out there. Summer always changes how I get dressed. I need pieces that feel lighter, more breathable. And they're just easy, but still put together. I don't want to look like a slob. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high-quality essentials that feel and look amazing. Breathable linen and soft organic cottons. Well-made basics, but without the luxury markups. That rare balance where everything feels elevated. but still effortless. Yeah, Chris, linen season is here. I wore a linen blazer to dinner a few nights ago in the warm California sun. But you know, you got that Italy trip coming up this summer and quality European linen pants and shirts. Upgrade that look starting at just $34. You know, if you get a nice linen suit, a little t-shirt underneath it, some chill shoes, you're looking good, but you're staying cool. The inside of your special areas are nice and dry as you turn up with your besties. So elevate that summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com slash how long for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns, even on a nice holiday now available in Canada.

That is Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash how long. That'll get you free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince punto com slash how long. How are you living, King? I'm okay. I was just, you caught me. I was just now playing some Civ. Civ the band? No, the game, Civilization. Oh, I was about to say, if you know about Civ, you're going to blow my fucking mind. No, I mean, I genuinely, that sounds deeply... White? It is. I was trying to find a less aggressive way of saying it, but yeah. It's okay. Jason and I are both very familiar with who we are and what we are. Are you guys not going to show your faces? No, you don't have to show your face either. We usually don't. But if you want to, I don't mind looking at this kerchief look. Okay. Yeah, no, I don't mind. I don't mind. I actually feel, it'll make me feel less crazy. Do you have AirPods in? No. Could you? Yeah, I fucked up. My headphones, I lost the charger to in New York. I mean, in London. So you're in quarantine with no headphones? Yep. Wow, go off. It'll be fine. He sounds okay, right, Jason? Yeah, you sound good. Okay. So what the fuck's going on? Why are you in London to begin with? I'm in London because I was supposed to be having my UK premiere, like my first play. It was supposed to be happening in London right now. So obviously that didn't happen, but were you stuck there or did you choose to stay? Yeah, I chose to stay mainly because I was like... I was like, like, why? At the height of it all, I was like, why would I get on an airplane when everyone can, like, when everyone who probably has been exposed to it is jumping on an airplane, going back to just expose all their friends and family to more corona? And also, it wasn't like I was, like, my director was, like, in a real rush to get back because, like, she has a partner. And, like...

family and all this other stuff. And like, not to say I don't have family or a partner, but like she has a partner. She really likes her partner and her family. So she needed to get back. I'm on the fence. Whereas your partner is a ticket or leave it. Take it or leave the situation. Well, my partner actually has a really bad asthma. So it's like, he's one of those people that could die if you get Corona. So I was going to be careful. Yeah, I'm not going to rush back and give them corona, especially because I was at Fashion Week and I was pretty sure I had it at the time. I think Fashion Week brought it back to New York 100%. I think that's how it got to New York. Oh, absolutely. I know for a fact that no one wants to say this, but I'm going to out it. The Mew Mew Party was a huge source of the outbreak. So you're saying the Prada group is directly responsible for Corona coming to New York City. Is it an Italian thing? Why Mew Mew specifically? Well, because I know 17 people who are at that party and they all got Corona. First of all, Flex. How many people? 17? 17. Damn, bro. I'm glad I didn't get my invite. Yeah. Yeah, I almost walked that show, but I chose not to last minute. I mean, I would have loved to have seen you in one of those gowns, but alas. You have to wait until this thing blows over. So did the premiere get moved back, or is it... on a schedule at all now? Or what's the deal? I think it's one of those things where it's like every, you know how everyone is sort of like, guys, like everything's going to get back to normal as soon as like the world's like, you know, as soon as we, we are done with this whole like shelter in place thing. But I think the real tea is that nothing's going to be back to normal. And most of the things that got canceled are just going to be canceled. Just forever. Yeah. So I think that my play will happen in London at some point later, but also like when like,

you know thousands of people are dying and especially in our country when thousands of those people are black i'm like i think my dumb little play is like the least of anyone's concerns well don't say that i mean because anyone could say that about whatever it is they're doing with their life and that you know i mean i think i think everyone should though We have all learned from this quarantine that we all have these little dumbass lives that aren't really doing that much of a big deal. Even if you are creating a play off-Broadway that is world-renowned, it's still small potatoes. This was sort of going to be the redo of the play in New York. I don't know if you guys saw Daddy, but Daddy... Oh, it's daddy. Okay. Okay. I didn't realize it was daddy. I didn't see, I did not see it, but I'm familiar with your work to an extent. Well, daddy was so fun. It was like the first play I ever wrote. And it was like, sort of, it came out like Hari Neff was in it. You know, we all love Hari. We do. Former guest of this podcast. I know. That's why I brought her up. I mean, she's my favorite guest in general. She was actually in London when I was first here. And so we had like a really great Kiki at the top of quarantine. So you guys both had, okay, great. So you gave her Corona and then she went back to New York. I see what happened. Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that Hari and I both wanted Corona because at the beginning, it felt like there was a real opportunity to be like the first celebrity of whatever stripe to have it. Like I'm the first. You would have gotten a lot of great press out of that. That's true. Honestly, that was an opportunity. I would talk to your team about that because that was a missed opportunity. I know. Actually, I now want to say, I think I should just come out and be like, I am someone who did not get Corona. And I was at the Mew Mew party. So now that's that that's how you differentiate yourself now. I see. I see. Yeah. So it was you were going to you were doing Daddy in London. Yeah. And like, you know, me and the director are, you know, the director is Donya Taymor and she's amazing. And, you know, unfortunately, Daddy got screwed over by the.

hyper excitement of slave play right like you're saying slave play got all the all the press and daddy was forgotten well no so slave play came out first slave play came out in like um in november and like and it got like the like like really like hyperbolically crazy reviews like in a positive way and yeah we get it we get it bro you're fucking popping we get it okay we get it okay No, but then like literally like two weeks later, you know, while I'm still in grad school, another play comes out. And I think everyone was still sort of like, yeah, we really like that other thing. So we want to keep focusing on that because this is a lot. And so I think that like that coupled with the fact that like, you know, me and my director had two and a half weeks to produce a play that takes place around an infinity pool and all the pressure that was around that. meant that, like, you know, there were a lot of things we wanted to attempt again in order to make sure the play got a fair shake. And it sucks because, like, all the things we really wanted were happening at the height of, like, the corona fever here. And we were like, no, they can't possibly cancel our show. I mean, we made the perfect version of it. And everyone was like, we're not canceling. This is London. We don't cancel theater. And then it was canceled. So I think... I say all that to say I think at some point the play will probably come back because people really like the play. But I'm also not holding my breath because, like, something unprecedented happened, which is that, like, the theater community that didn't even shut down for the Black Plague, like, shut down for coronavirus. What is your – I was going to ask you this. Like, what is your – did you set out to do theater or did you get into this, like, almost by accident? It's, like, both and. Okay, great answer. That's the new yes and. I don't know that anyone, I think that most people I really respect in almost any industry, unless they are like a tech bro.

That kind of accidentally on purpose ended up in their career. You know, it was sort of like, oh, like growing up, I wanted to be a lawyer and I was like hyper articulate and was a good student. But I also had like a lot of anxiety issues and like was crazy. And the only place I felt not crazy was when I was acting in a play. So you were acting in high school and stuff? Yeah, I was like the actor in high school. I can see that for you. Where did you grow up? In Virginia, in like a small town in Virginia. So I was like a big fish in a really small pond. In a really white pond? Well, my private school was really white. Yeah, like my private school was literally invented so that rich white kids didn't have to go to integrated high schools. Dan, that's some real, you know, as a Southern man myself, I recognize behavior like that. Wait, where in the South did you grow up, Chris? Atlanta, baby. Oh, Atlanta. Oh, my God. You think this flavor is free? Like, I've earned this shit. Bro, come on. Yeah, did you see that crazy thing on A Girl Has No President the other day? No. um well basically someone in georgia called the um they were like oh since we're opening everything up let's call i'm gonna call and schedule a tour for the governor oh yes yes yes yeah and they were like hell no we're not giving you a tour of the governor's mansion there's a there's a pandemic yeah that shit is so good i did see that it was so funny i didn't uh did you so did you go to college to do theater or did you just do it in addition to what you were already doing well no so i decided i made a real decision that i was going to go to a conservatory like i was like i could this kind of school i went to you had to apply to all the fancy schools yeah and then um i was like well i'm going to secretly apply to drama schools and if i get in that means i can be an actor like i'm not just a big fish in a small pond and i did get in And so I decided to like go for it full force. But I was a fucking freak. Like, you know, I was six foot five. I had really long hair. I was like, obviously a faggot. And I only like doing like experimental explorations of like classic text. So everyone was like, who? I mean, that doesn't sound like inroads to like making money, but it sounds like a cool thing to do. Like when you're on drugs and like 20.

Exactly. Exactly. And I was also the kid that wasn't on drugs until the end of my freshman year, which is like the biggest waste. Like I'm imagining like what my life would have been like as an actor if I had like done acid, not at the last, like not the last week of school, but the first week. And I just feel like it would have been next level. That could have changed the course of your life. I agree. That's what drugs do. You know what I mean? They do. Whenever all the stars align, it can really set you off on a different path. I feel like all the kids I know from Atlanta are really druggie. Well, I've been sober for three years. Oh, for real? I can tell you that that is 100% true. When I started coming to New York all the time when I was younger, I thought just everybody did coke all the time. And they're like, nah, maybe not on Monday night. And then I would find out from bands and people I knew that traveled all the time that Atlanta was known as a party city. What is it about Atlanta that has you guys geeking so hard? We're on I-95, baby. We're cocaine cowboys. You take that shit straight up. Okay, that's fair. did you go to high school did you go to one of the fancier high schools or did you go to like oh hell no no no i went to a regular suburban high school that had a shooting when i was in 11th grade and that dropped out like i did not go to i didn't go to tommy dorfman's school if that's what you're asking you know what i'm saying so tommy dorfman another crackhead from that yes yes yes um but my boyfriend went to the international school in atlanta like the fancy international school and like all of his friends have like trust fund. Not all of them. If one of them is going to hear this and be like, I don't have a trust fund. Did Jeremy think I have a trust fund? But the stories I hear and the friends, some of the friends I've met, I'm just like, whoa, like he's from, he went to the high school that had a lot of Atlanta money. So I'm always trying to bust out who went to what school. I unfortunately am not part of that, but I did flirt with that later. I discovered that later on before I moved to New York. You know what I mean? But like, that was like,

it's southern shit like that is so weird because it's like really not chic you know what i mean it's like it's like rich people a lot of places can be cool in the south it's tough it's tough yeah i mean my the rich people at my school like were like one of the girls was like super rich because her dad owned every sheets on the east coast sheets you know sheets the gas station oh oh yes i yes i do okay i was like damn i knew people who were rich like that i'm like that's like dumb That's just a dumb reason to be rich. That's how real people get money, bro. You got to own some funny shit. Some weird consumer product is how you get rich. If you're not doing real estate or drugs or finance, it's got to be some weird consumer product. Yeah, I mean, I truly feel to this day it boggles my mind. Then there was a guy who... whose mom was like the second richest woman in all of Virginia because they inherited the Hamlet plantations, which is where we had our graduation party. Jesus Christ. Yeah. That's a lot. So where did you go after Virginia? You went to somewhere before Yale, right? Yeah, I went to college in Chicago. Oh, okay, okay. Theater school at DePaul University. Okay, okay. Where Gillian Anderson and John C. Reilly went. Theater school. I love that. I love some Midwestern acting. You know, that's really, did you like Chicago? I love Chicago. I mean, Chicago was fucking so cold. It was the coldest place I've ever been in my entire life. It's extreme. But it was, it was, I mean, the cool thing about Chicago is that when I, so I, I'm just going to skip to the end of this, of my first year at drama school. Cause I, the, the. The big story of Jeremy is that I dropped out of college. And I dropped out after my second year because in my first year I got cut from the drama school because I was fucking weird. And then the next year I became a poetry major in the English department, but I started acting in the city. And I quit because I was getting so much work. And the thing I love about Chicago is that unlike New York...

you can actually get a lot of work as a young, maybe not even great artist, because there's so many opportunities for artists to fail publicly in Chicago. I didn't know that. At all levels? Yeah, I mean, I think across the board, I think that there's like... What you get there is, like, because everyone knows that they'll be able to find a space to, like, put their show up or, like, present their art, there's less ambition, I think, overall, which I think in some ways, like, there's less competition and ambition, which I think fuels some of the, like, transgressive experimentation that you see in New York. But... As far as being able to get your 10,000 hours or whatever, you get that and then some. Interesting. I do know that historically there's been a lot of creative stuff that thrives there, so I imagine there is a reason for it. But I just don't fuck with the Midwest. I don't like the vibe. Everybody's fat and boring. Yeah. I mean, there is a lot of fat, boring. energy there um but i think that like growing up in the south i was used to fat boring energy so i didn't really mind honey good point yeah honey i'm home give me a big squeeze uh so did you so you so when did you so how long did you stay in chicago i stayed in chicago um from 18 to 21 and then i on a whim i moved to la to work or just to live life yeah Well, because I was going to play with someone who got cast on a pilot and that got picked up to series. And I was like, oh, if he can do that, I can do that, obviously. And then I moved to Chicago with $1,500 in my pocket and like no, or not Chicago, to LA with $1,500 in my pocket with like no sense of like what real estate was like in LA, where to live in LA or anything. I just sort of like.

Got a wallpaper guide. What? Did you end up in Marina Del Rey? Don't tell me that. Oh, I ended up in West LA slash Santa Monica. And I worked at the Santa Monica Barneys Co-op. Now we're cooking with gas. Oh, okay. What a great job. What a time. What department were you in? The co-op is just the co-op. But then I moved to the Beverly Hills. I moved to Beverly Hills. like later and I got to work in women's dresses. So that was like women's designer, which was like really, that was where I thrived. I thrived there and selling men co-op denim. Like I was, I can sell men clothes better than like almost anyone because I have this weird dog, like dog whistle for straight men. Like we just like, bye. Well, I mean, We're vibing right now, baby. It's real. We're recording this dog whistle happening as we speak. Yeah, you got both of us sitting up and ready to beg. What is that? Did you have any celeb customers at Barney's? That's the question. Who is your clientele? I did have some celebs. But, like, no one that was, like, major. Like, the woman who was, like, from the Egyptians, you know that band? Yes, yes, yes, yes. She stopped with me. A lot of stylists stopped with me. But, like, it was, like, again, that time in my life is such a haze because I was a full, like, I was having a mental breakdown because I, like, I had never failed at anything in my entire life. And I got cut from this drama school that I wanted to go to so badly. And my promise to myself was, like, if you get cut from drama school, you'll graduate college as an English major and just go to law school. But when I saw that the people that got cut weren't necessarily the worst actors to me, I realized that, like, the entire business was subjective in a way that, like, I hadn't computed for. I was just sort of like, because I'd always gotten what I wanted, intellectually and academically, I was like, oh.

Like things like my race, my height, my gender expression won't stop me from like going to the heights of this business too. And then I, it did. And so I had this, it was like, I sort of. Yeah, I really the world went upside down for me for a couple of years. And so that was when I started like drinking and like partying and like going to clubs a lot and like started started getting my self-worth through those sorts of relationships. So like in the club space, I mean, I will tell you that I. I became really good friends with Lindsay Lohan for a while. Oh, my God. Okay, well, this is a whole separate podcast, but go ahead. What clubs are you going to? What era are we talking about? Do you remember Paul and Andres? Oh, of course. I DJed there many a time. You probably saw me there. So Paul and... God, who's the guy that ran the door there? I can't remember, but they really fell for me for a short time. And they would just give me alcohol to honeypot girls over. And because I get along with straight guys so well, the guys would come over and then the girls would be there and then we'd just hang out all night. And then I'd end up at someone's house or end up in some... crazy situation. So you were kind of like a fixer. You were a, you were a Gislaine as it were. Exactly. Did, did, um, what was your look at the time? Oh God, it was so chaotic. I was just, um, I was like, I was really into like shopping vintage and, um, mismatching that was like weird shit. I'd find it urban outfitters. Cause again, like I grew up poor. So like I had to like figure out how to fake. um, style, um, or I had to, I had to use style to fake, like, you know, be upper class or something. And it vaguely worked because in LA, no one has style. It's true. It's, it's, it's completely devoid of style. I mean, it really is. And also during that era, everyone, like Lohan was wearing vintage as much as, as, you know, a homeless guy. Like everyone was doing vintage everything. Exactly. And I remember when I became buddies with her,

That was a really wild time for her because she was saying she was sober, but she obviously wasn't. We love a vodka in the water bottle Lohan. I would do parties at that place, and when Lohan would come, we would bring her six Crystal Geyser water bottles filled with straight vodka. Exactly. Were you there the night? If you Google this, let me think. Paul and Andres, Lindsay Lohan. fight. You will see a picture of me with her. You'll see the back of my head. Who is fighting? Lindsay Lohan got into a fight with some girl who she was like, that bitch is taking pictures of me. And she would say that all the time. And I was like, no, she's not taking pictures of you. And she was like, she is. She's fucking taking pictures of me. And then at one point, she jumped up, grabbed the girl, pulled her phone out of her hand, ran to the bathroom, threw it in the bathroom, in the toilet, and came back. And the girl was like, where's my phone? And she was like, go fishing, bitch. And then pushed the girl again. Wow, that's poetic. Yeah. And then she went to the DJ booth and started playing songs off of her ipod off of her iphone oh my oh god i mean you were talking about kiki's earlier i miss kiki's but now i really miss just like this club bullshit you know at the time it was just a stupid thing and now i'm reminiscing about those times so much like does that shit even happen anymore i was like when i was in paris for fashion week like there was this sort of like um, there was a model party at like a strip club that everyone was like, we have to go there. And I went and it was like kind of fun, but it felt like everyone was like, um, cause playing chaotic. No, it doesn't exist anymore because people are either too concerned with image or too concerned with their health. There's no, like, you can't just, I mean, Paul and Andre, you could do Coke in the open. I mean, it was, you can smoke cigs and do Coke in the open. That's exactly what any club needs to be cool.

But unfortunately, everyone is just too tame now. And back in the, you know, we kind of were part of the last generation where people were really getting messy as hell in the club with without really any consequences. And now, you know, yeah, like I went to a strip club party. It was like a FK Twigs party. And it was like every cool, hot, weirdo artist person in L.A. in one room. And they're just kind of standing around looking at a stripper like. No one's doing any wild shit. No one's puking. No one's getting, no one's fighting. Like everyone's a fucking loser now. It's crazy. I just feel blessed. I just feel blessed to live through the good times. You know what I mean? That's how I have to look at it. We barely made it out alive. We did barely. But I'm also now like in retrospect, because I think that's. part of the reason why some of my plays feel different than other people's plays is because, like, that's the, those are the experiences I'm pulling from. Yeah, for sure. And I've been thinking a lot about, like, those 40-year-olds and 30-year-old dudes that were, like, hanging out with me at these parties. And I'm just like, what, like, now that I'm 30, I'm like, the last place I want to be is a club, kind of. And I'm just like, what was that lifestyle for them? Like, what were they going home and waking up the next day thinking about, you know? They were trying to get their dick sucked by 19-year-olds. Exactly. I was about to say, there's two reasons that people go to the club. I say it all the time. It's for sex or for drugs. If you're not doing one of those, you have no reason to be out. If you're 30 and you're successful and you've got a man, you don't need to be at the club. What's happening today? Unless you're really into breakdancing or something, you have no business. I do like hearing... I miss hearing hip hop in that setting because that to me is the best judge of, of, of music in some ways. Yes, I do. I do miss that, but otherwise I could never go to a club again. Well, no one plays hip hop in club anymore. Everyone wants to hear like, like bad, like, you know, EDM, not even EDM house. Yeah. House music. And I'm like, I don't want that. Me neither, bro. That's not my pleasure space. Speak for yourself, bitches. Speak for yourself.

It is not my pleasure space either. That's a great way to put it. So you're telling me you went from Paul and Andres with Lindsay Lohan to Connecticut? Yeah. There was like a weird break. I mean, I worked for a shady art dealer in the sense that he wasn't an art dealer at all. He was a dealer, I think. But he owned an art gallery and he hired me to like plan events for him. And none of them ever really came to fruition, but it was like I was a part of his big front. And during that time, I met Isabella Summers, who's in a band called Florence and the Machine. And I started hanging out with those girls a lot. And I went on tour with them, and I hung out a bunch. Oh, I didn't know this about you. I didn't know this at all. Were you working on tour, or you just went and hung out? I just went and hung out. And I was sort of, and that was when I was, like, a lot of people know me from that time and are kind of like, oh, you were that weird dude who was homeless and just hanging out with them. And I'm like, yeah, sort of. I was more than that. I am more than that. Yeah, this has a very almost famous feel. Like, I'm not just a groupie, okay? Exactly. But the entire time I was, like, writing and, like, reading a bunch. And it was like, I got this chance to, like, sort of have my years of rest and relaxation. During that journey, Issa and Florence both were like, yo, like, you have too much potential to, like, not be doing anything. So you should, like, figure your life out. So I moved back home to Virginia. And then I started writing. Were you living at home? Yeah, I was living at home a bit, and then I went back to L.A. at the very end and worked at a donut shop in Highland Park called Donut Friend. Oh, I'm familiar. Across the street from Joy. Yeah. That's owned by a former music producer. He did a bunch of pop-punk records and stuff. Yes, and he and I had the same birthday.

Oh, it was meant to be clearly. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, I worked there and then, um, I got in, I got into this festival and then I got into this, um, this festival for plays that was like hard to get into. And, um, I lost the festival, but I got all this confidence and then I went to the McDowell, um, the McDowell residency, which is in New Hampshire. I'm familiar with that actually. Yes. Yeah. And that was where I really found my voice of the writer and was told I should go to grad school. I see. OK, so that was the push you needed. And then you you apply. How does it work to apply? Did you have to send them? Is it based on work mostly? Yeah. So you send them a play and like this letter, this weird letter about what you want to do while you're there. And I think I got really lucky because the woman that ran the program was leaving that year. And her name was Jeannie O'Hare. And I think Jeannie and the woman that was going to be her interim chair, Jennifer Kiger, who Jennifer is the literary manager of the Yale Rep. So she's not used to finding plays that need work. She finds plays that can be produced. So they both were like, let's just blow up this program and let in three playwrights who have plays that are already ready and are a little different than our normal group. And so they brought in, like, three playwrights that were the first class of three boys. And I was a part of that chaotic class. And I feel like if they weren't ready to blow the school up a little bit, then, like, I wouldn't have gotten in. But it's a very prestigious program, right? Yeah, oh, 100%. And, like, the writers that had been there under Jeannie's rule were so amazingly talented. And, like, they were grownups in a real way. But they all come from really weird places. So it made sense that we would be her last class because we were real angry chaos agents. I love that. I personally have always wondered this because I'm pretty familiar with most of the entertainment business as far as movies and TV and music. Plays, I'm not as familiar with. And I just need to know how you make money. How does it work? How do you get rich from plays?

So generally you don't. That's what I thought, but that's how I wanted to hear more from a professional. But I think that's true of like most luxury industries, right? Like how do you get famous? I mean, how do you get rich being like a fashion designer or a jewelry designer? Like generally like most people don't. You got to license your name to a perfume, baby. That's the only thing. But most people don't do it, right? Like a lot of people that we know who do these things in the luxury world don't ever. make any money. And there are a couple at the top whose names we all know who do. And so theater is a luxury brand. And it's not a luxury brand that's attached to most spaces of craftsmanship. If you're a designer and can't get your personal line off, you can still be a well-compensated designer for a bigger brand. For sure. Even like a Club Monaco, right? But for theater, I mean, generally the way you would make any sort of living is if you ended up writing for television. And I knew I didn't want to do that. I see. So theater is the it's the experimental record to get you noticed. And then you do something else, basically, to make money. Yes. Yes. And most people, the thing that most people do is tap into their trust fund. So how many, like, on average, what would you guess, like, how many plays a year would be considered, like, financially very successful? How many? Yeah. Is it, like, five or is it ten or is it? I mean, yeah, I think it's, like. like 10 to 15 plays are financially successful in a year. Like, I mean, and I'm sure someone's going to be listening to this and be like, actually he's wrong. If you look at American theater magazine, like list of plays that are, but I think that like, you know, so the ways that what happens is, um, if you do a play, I'm going to give you like the full, um, financial breakdown. Play by play. Play by play. So like slave play, right. Um, uh, that premiered at New York theater workshop.

for that, when that play premieres, a play that I worked on for two years, um, that play, uh, the, I got $10,000 to do that play at the theater. Um, that's how much money you get for the play. Like, like you're saying 10,000 and how long is it running? It's running for two months. So two years of work gets you 10 racks. Yes. But then if it like, if you get extended, you get like, you know, point nine percent of like or nine percent of like the box office or something so then that so then that means that the play ends up getting um i don't know like you end up getting like fifteen hundred fifteen thousand dollars let's say like fifteen thousand dollars is how much you're gonna make from that um but then oh and it's upstairs but then after that um you get um After that, you get the chance for your play to be licensed, right? Which means that other theaters will do it. So a company like Samuel Flint will look at your play and its popularity, its reviews, and guess how many other theaters in the country might want to do that play after you, after it's been premiered. Interesting. And you're not, at that point, you're not involved anymore. If it gets licensed, it's just like, There's people directing this shit in Idaho and running it with their actors and their whole shit. Yes, but one of the reasons people like to be a playwright is that unlike being a screenwriter, you get to have ownership of the thing you've done forever. I see what you're saying. So if I wanted to show up in Idaho and sit in on rehearsals, I'd get to. Oh, okay, okay, okay. I didn't realize that at all. I probably would. Sure, sure. So your play is just an off-Broadway play. That's what you're looking at. And so usually you'll get an advance based on what they project your licensee will be. So I said, my premiere, they were going to give me an advance of $15,000 because they were like, you wrote a play called Slave Play. It has eight characters in it. It got really good reviews, but it's also a fucking weird play that has a lot of sex in it. No one's going to want to do that.

And I was still in grad school, so I was sort of like, oh, I'm not going to sign my thing yet. I don't want to sign anything until I figure things out. Then Broadway happened. So your play is a play that's lucky enough to get to Broadway. What happens is you get a $45,000 or $35,000 advance for your play going up on Broadway, which is a huge life-changing amount of money, right? In some ways. Generally, a play getting produced only gets you $10,000. For sure. It's a big increase, for sure. And then, given how long your run is, every week that your play runs on Broadway, you're making like 5%, I think, of the box office for a nine-seat theater. And so, at a certain point, once you've... reach $35,000, you start making actual money on top of that. So for Slave Play, because of how our ticket sales were going, I was making about 15 to 20 grand a week. Ooh, let's go, baby. Now we're cooking with gas. Yeah. So like, but again, I'm very lucky. Like, I mean, like this year there were eight new plays on Broadway and who knows how many of them were financially successful. And also, like, everyone has a different kind of deal, you know? Of course, yeah. And the actors, that's, like, not your concern. That's all, obviously. This money's going straight into your pocket. The theater's dealing with everything else. Exactly. And now my advance for the play is significantly higher, right? Like, the advance for play-play licensing is so much higher because everyone's like, well, it was on Broadway. It did well. Like, we could do it. So now that advance is, like... closer to 80,000. And so that money is the money that I've ostensibly made from Slave Play, having not sold film rights or anything else for it. Well, I was going to ask, I mean, Slave Play obviously got a lot of attention, but I mean, I imagine that also eventually reflects your bank account because a lot of opportunity comes from it. Yeah. And so, you know, something that I'm in a very privileged position with is that like,

Because I lived in L.A. for so long and knew so many people in the industry of film and television, I have, like, these crazy film and TV deals that I don't think would have been able to – I would have gotten had I not been, like, a crackhead in L.A. for seven years. Well, I wish Jason – Jason's been a crackhead in L.A. for, like, 15 years, and he still hasn't had any deals yet. So I don't know what he's – I don't know what the fuck he did wrong, but you guys can talk off podcast about that because he needs some help. But you're saying the film and TV rights is slave play. You haven't sold. There's no plan for that, or you just haven't found the right deal yet? No, I mean, it's called slave play for a reason. You know, it's a play. And so a lot, I mean, even when it was off Broadway, people were like, I think this could be a TV show, or I think this could be a movie. And that's not really where my interests are. So you're saying you would rather do different stuff in the film and TV space than try to retrofit slave play into that? Yes. Yes. So if somebody was like, here's 10 million for a slave movie, do you want it? Yes or no? I probably wouldn't do it. I mean, I think that for me, it's like, I feel really freed knowing that I grew up poor. Yeah. And so I'm not really afraid to be poor again. It's just sort of like. If you go back to the bottom, you know that you can survive. You know how to jug. Exactly, exactly. So I'd rather just, like, my integrity as long as possible. And, like, if I met an artist, like, you know, if someone like Paul Thomas Anderson was like, I love slave play, this is how I would turn it into a movie, and it, like, aligns with all of my sensibilities, I'd be like, oh, great, let's do it. But right now, I haven't had that moment. Makes sense. I mean, no, it's good to, yeah, there's no reason to do it. So if Aquafina wants to do it, it ain't gonna happen. If what? If Awkwafina calls you wanting to do it, it's not going to be sweet for her. Awkwafina might have a take on it that blows me away. That's a good point.

There are probably only like three people in the industry that I'm like no bueno with. And like Aquafina is not one of them. I'm like in there. Well, let's go ahead and get that list of the three people if you don't mind. Go ahead. You can start from the top or you can start from the bottom. We don't care. I mean, I feel like on the spot it's hard to name them. You're like, but it's like, I mean, I mean, one really easy one is Bryan Singer wouldn't be at the top of my list. Yeah, that's fair. That's a given. That's sure. What about Weinstein? You like Weinstein? He does some good stuff. Is he still alive? I thought he died, right? You ever heard of a little company called Miramax? They might be interested. He will probably get suicided soon, but I think he's still alive. For now. You still have a chance to do your deal is what we're saying. There's still time. I mean, who knows? What are you doing in film and TV? Is it interesting to you or is it something you're doing for the check? Again, I feel like I made a really great amount of money from uh, working on slave play. We know we've seen you, we've seen you cop in gear. We know, we know. No. So like, I mean, I feel like I got really lucky in the sense that I got to say yes to only things I wanted to work on. Yeah. So one of the things I'm working on is a, um, is a sci-fi film called the new world. I actually just got off a call about it. And that's an adaptation of this graphic novel by Ailish Coase that I really, really, really like. And that would be my chance to, like, show people that, like, I'm a real sci-fi freak. There's just so many twists and turns with you. I tell you what. Yeah. I mean, we'll see. We're really peeling back this onion today. My eyes are watering. Well, I have to pull it off first. That's true. Good point. Was this something that you wanted to adapt or you were approached to adapt? I was approached to adapt it. And then when I read it, I was like, oh, I absolutely love this. That's cool. And so I said yes. And then I have my deal with HBO. And HBO wants me to adapt my thesis play about Yale into like a TV show. So I'm doing that. And then there's a TV show with an Oscar winner that I'm doing this year that is Secret.

So I'm going to hold on to that for a bit. And then another person I'm making a horror movie for. Jesus Christ. Okay. So the A24 horror movie coming soon. Got it. A24 is going to be really hurt when they hear that because they are not doing it. That sounds like a lot of work, fam. I mean, to be honest, like I don't, I find it. I think that's how the business works, though, is you have to have a lot of irons in the fire. And when you're hot, you're hot. You've got to strike. And I understand that. But creatively, is it all different enough to where you feel like you're able to dedicate enough time and mind share to it all? Yeah. I mean, I think that like the hardest thing for me is that I had never. But when I was saying yes to all this stuff, I wasn't. I was saying yes to a lot of the things before I knew Broadway was happening. Right. Oh, I see. I see. So I had like multiple things lined up for postgraduate. So I would have like a year of work after I graduated grad school. And then Slave Play happened. A lot of things, the hardest thing for me is that I want to put my attention and my passion fully and deeply into whatever I'm doing at the time. Yeah. And so there was one project that I was working on that I'm still working on, but that I wasn't working on fast enough for the production company. Because this year was, I mean, my grandfather died. I graduated grad school. I started grad school homeless, left grad school, being able to figure out what I wanted to do in the world, where I wanted to live in the world in a very freeing way. And then my grandpa died, and then I was going to Broadway. And so having to juggle having a real life and also the fact that writing this thing I love doing had become a job made that project more difficult to maintain.

But I think now that Broadway's over and I'm able to situate my passions around a schedule that's more free, it feels really good. But I don't think it'll ever be easy because I don't think anyone teaches, especially a young writer, how to have a job as a writer. In the sense of what that entails on a day-to-day basis and the kind of discipline you need to have. Yeah, I mean, especially because like, you know, in film and television, it's an industry where you're beholden to so many other people. So many other people are beholden to you to like allow them to do their jobs. So if you decide, like if I was writing a novel and I got. Like, and I got excited about another idea for two short stories. I could just set my novel aside and start working on those short stories. But like, you know, the other day I was listening to the Fiona Apple album and I came up with this idea for a play and I started writing it. And then I was like, oh, Jeremy, if you put yourself inside of this play, then your HBO outline is going to be late or your Warner Brothers outline is going to be late. And then I can't do, so I don't. I'm still trying to figure out how to manage all of those things. It sounds like it's not as fun anymore. Well, I mean, I also think it's like when I, when I, it's easiest for me to compare it to, you know, music. Cause that's the thing I understand the most. So it's like, if you're making an album, you at least have your four other bandmates or producer, whoever to lean on. This sounds like a pretty solo kind of endeavor. Yes. Yes. And also, I mean, I have a question, like when you're making an album, if you decide. Like, you know, if you're in the midst of album making mode and like someone's still waiting for the album to come out if you're with a major label, right? For sure. Like February's the due date. What happens if you get a call from like, you know, Dua Lipa and she's like, yo, I want you in the studio for like two weeks because I have this great idea for us to work on? Well, depending on how big you are, I would say you go get the cash with Dua Lipa and your little record can come out whenever. You know what I mean? Yeah.

Yeah, it depends on who's calling. If Dua Lipa calls, then I'm sure your manager and your agent and your label will all agree that that's probably a good idea. That's just going to help you sell more records down the line if you get the credit with Dua Lipa, is basically my take on that one. But that's Dua. Yeah, that's a one of one, baby. That's an exclusive. That's not... That's the leap up. We don't fuck with the leap up. Give you leap up calls, you come running. Exactly, you sprint. So have you been working in quarantine? Do you find it beneficial to your work or are you distracted? It kind of feels like this is the first time you've been able to pump the brakes and stop this crazy train that's been running for the last... However many years? Yeah. I mean, I had a lot of resentment and anger at the top of quarantine because I felt like... Especially in the entertainment industry, everyone was living in this space of denial that anything was going on. They were like, work from home? Same as always. People still trying to set meetings and coffees and all this other shit. The world wasn't burning around us. We weren't actively navigating a new reality inside of a dystopia. I was like, you know what I'm going to do? Not answer any texts. not answer any calls, not answer any emails and just like watch anime and like read and let my brain like process the world around me. Maybe just cry some days because I don't want to, I don't want to feel like it's business as usual. And I know for some other people, that's how they, that's business as usual was the only way. That's how you cope. Yeah. That's me. Yeah. But I couldn't cope that way. So it wasn't until. like a week and a half ago, that I was able to really lean back into labor in the normal sense. And that was because the first thing on my next list to check off is the dystopian romance I'm writing. It's like a sci-fi movie.

Because my lived experience right now was so quickly aligning with the lived experience of the characters in that story, I was starting to think about it more. So I came back to work naturally. But I've been very much an advocate for people not needing to go back to work anytime soon. Because I think that this is such a... such a perspective shifting moment that we have to take note you know and i also i hate to be woo or whatever about it but it does feel like something inside of our world was saying like slow down stop And I know some people felt like they were just going and they had been slowed down and stopped for a long time. So maybe this was the way of the world telling them to like start making more or start doing more. But I know that for me, the lesson I wanted to take from this moment was just like, take a second, stop. The world will be there like in a week, in two weeks, in a month, in a year. And you don't have to be the most prolific human being in the world to have worth, which is what I was worried about. And I think the only thing I had to learn inside of that was how to be more honest with both myself and the people around me. Because I think the easiest thing to cower to is the pressure that it can all go away. Oh, 100%. 100%. I think a lot of people are feeling that, especially when you're, like you said, like, you know, somebody else is writing the checks. Yeah. And I had been, I realized that, like, I'm. I'm not, I'm someone who tends to be really honest, except for when I'm put in a corner, you know, or feel like someone doesn't want my honesty. And so I was allowing myself to be like, oh yeah, I'll get that to you next week or I'll get it to you in two days. And like, it wasn't coming out or coming to them in the right way because I was trying to be self-protective, you know? I mean, man, I feel like you're handling this a lot better than I am. That's all I have to say. How are you handling it? Bro, I'm like, I'm not losing it. I've actually handled it better than I thought I would. But I think that I'm just not, I don't like to slow down. That is not my DNA. Like, I'm a very social person. I just have had a hard time with that aspect of it. Like, I really miss the interaction. And I don't know how it's, I'm not sure how it's benefiting me yet.

Well, I think maybe a lot of that is because socializing and pushing on is your anti-drug as well. Yeah, that's true. That's what I was going to ask you. Does sobriety feel more difficult inside of quarantine? Because I feel like I'm really worried about my friends who generally have created a culture around going to AA and being in the social environment with other people that are sober, or even sometimes people who aren't sober, so they can just witness this thing. I mean, in some ways, yes. In some ways, no. I think that it's just forced me to kind of, I definitely think about it more, which I don't think is bad. You know what I mean? I think it's nice to, I do think there's a benefit to taking stock about whatever it is, even if it's difficult. But I think I've been able to channel, I've been able to push myself like physically with exercise. It's kind of been able to distract me a little bit, I think. Um, but yeah, it's definitely not, it's, it's, I mean, sitting around idle is definitely the time when you want to be smacked out on pills. I mean, you know, for, for, for, for, uh, the short, the short answer. Um, but I, I think that it is, I think there's a lot of relapsing happening right now though, for sure, because people are just distraught and alone and don't know what to do. Yeah. Fuck. But I mean, you know, like, I mean, this is much bigger than that. You know, I think this thing is going to affect everyone differently. And hopefully it's more positive than negative, which is hard to consider in the middle of it. Well, I think that my relapse has been just like relapsing into like sort of a type of lethargy that I haven't experienced since I was like 14 and unmedicated. depressed, unmedicated depressive. Like, um, I just like there, there, there was like a day where I spent literally four hours in my bed after waking up and I was like, well, that's crazy. But again, I also think it's about like this moment's about radical acceptance and like allowing your brain and your body, no matter how, um, imbalanced certain parts of your chemistry are to like find its own balance and find its new sense of self.

And again, to be honest with yourself about what those things mean and what you need out of those things. I mean, I just don't think we're, as a culture, used to this much idle time. And even the distractions that I like are boring now. You know what I mean? I mean, we talked about this a little bit on Twitter, but too hot to handle the excellent Netflix show. It's a horrible Netflix show. It's an incredible Emmy Award winning television show. But that kind of stuff, it's like I love shit like that and I get high on it and then it's over so fast. I hyper focus on it, watch it all, and then it's gone. Well, it's easier to watch that one really fast because the show had a chaotic sense of timing. One episode's 30 minutes, the next episode's 47. You're like... Not only do you not know what time or space you're in when you're watching the show, but the show doesn't know what time or space it wants to occupy for its audience. Jason, did you watch it? I have not had a chance to catch it just yet, unfortunately. Well, Jeremy highly recommends it, I know. And I don't want to speak for you, Jeremy, but you highly recommend it. And I also highly recommend it. To me, that's what I think Netflix has been able to do, though. Between that and Tiger King and a few other things, it's just perfect content for this moment. I can't tell if they had it. They must have had it on deck and ready to go. I just wonder what the release schedule was like if it was moved around. My biggest thing with the Netflix content this time is that it does show that people's energy around these things is in a really broken, depressive space. I thought that both Tiger King and Too Hot to Handle were two of the worst series of networks that is consistently put out. But you watched them both, didn't you? Yeah, because I wanted to be a part of the cultural conversation, and there was literally nothing else on. Jeremy, what are some trash-ass shows that you do recommend and enjoy? Okay, so my friend Patrick Villaga recommended this, like,

ridiculous anime to me called no game no life um which is utter garbage like you know You know, some of the greatest animators and storytellers ever write things and render them for you. And they're all at your disposal on Crunchyroll and Netflix and Hulu. There's no reason to watch No Game, No Life except to, like, disassociate and live inside of the brain of, like, a horny teenager. And No Game, No Life is basically about... A brother and a sister, he's 18, she's 11, and they are the best gamers in the world. It's where the entire world's rules are around games. The TV show is like, the show is super pedo, like the main character. like wants to fuck his little sister and she wants to fuck him and they have like agoraphobia and like so they never leave the house and they're always together and sleep this sounds like this sounds like billy eilish and her brother i didn't know they made dog i'm jacking off right now as we speak so you're recommending anime to us yeah What about some non-animated? I saw that you were watching SNL from home. What do you think about that? Oh, I've been loving it. So my big thing is that for theater makers, theater makers need to wake up to the fact that it cannot be business as usual for us. Because much like the anxiety I have, or that every film studio has about releasing films, and who's going to even come to a theater when theaters are open again, I think that... theater makers need to be having that anxiety times 10 because people already didn't want to go see a play. Yeah. I mean, like if like movie theaters were, were like really taking a shit, I mean, theater really must be doing bad compared to, you know? Yeah. I mean, like the thing that.

No, I mean, it's true. I mean, the thing is, like, my mom would risk going to the theater to see Black Widow, because my mom has this weird obsession with the Marvel franchise, as does my stepfather. But my mom wouldn't risk going to see a play in a theater, even if I had written it. I know that for a fact. She already thinks it's, like, boring to be in a theater, that the seats are uncomfortable, and that it's too expensive. So I think that, like, the same... I hope you have a good therapist. My therapist looked really anxious the last time I talked to them on the phone. So I'm like, I don't think I need to be talking to you right now. Do you think it's because they're losing out on their check as well? No, I think that therapists generally, a lot of people who decide to do psychotherapy are a little crazy. And I think that like I caught my therapist in the middle of their own personal spiral. But anyway. Did you send them a Venmo request? You know what? We'll call this one even, all right? I'll take you back next week. I should have. God, what's my rate? But I think that theaters are going to, it's going to take a really long time for theaters to get the green light to go back online. And I think that in the meantime, theaters should be looking at ways to digitize itself or to create the same experience, even if there's failure to do it. like online and so or virtually and what i like about snl especially watching the second episode is that you saw that they like learned from their mistakes in the first episode and like there are a lot of mistakes in the first episode yeah but those mistakes are so cool to watch like even them trying to see if like having people laugh over zoom during weekend update work like definitely didn't but um so much like you going to Chicago and having chances to fail publicly, SNL was doing the same. Yes, yes. And I think that theater should do that too. I think that instead of theaters trying to rush to announce fall seasons that probably won't happen, they should be rushing to figure out how to do a play where Jake Gyllenhaal calls you at home and reads a monologue to you in your ear.

Wow. Don't give away all these secrets. Speaking of jerking off, wow. Do you think... He was a producer on Slave Play, and I sent him the creepiest text the other day, and I felt really bad. I didn't know Gyllenhaal was involved. Yeah, he produced Slave Play, and he's been such a great champion for the play. I love that. He's a real man of the arts. He's a real man of the arts. He's a real patron of the arts. I mean, he is. I mean, the fact that he will produce another play on Broadway the same season he had a play up is, like, real patronage right there. Because, you know, we were going to try to knock him out of the best play category and the best actor category, and he didn't care. He wanted to see the play, you know? Damn, damn. What a selfless man. Real selfless. But I do think he looks hot. I think he looks hotter with shorter hair, if I have to be honest. So I was watching Velvet Buzzsaw, and I was so attracted to him. And so I texted him. I was like, oh, my God, you are so hot in Velvet Buzzsaw. Like, I'm so turned on right now or something like to that. Wait, that was a weird Netflix movie where he had those creepy eyes? Yes. And he didn't respond. He just hearted the text. You can't heart that text. That demands a response, I would say. The whole purpose of that text is a response. But, you know, I think I've been trying to see what team he's actually on since I saw Brokeback Mountain. And I've met his girlfriend, so I know he has one of those. But much like the two of you, I don't know. I think part of what I'm so close to straight men is that I think that they know that I know that they're not all straight. I like that approach. I like that approach. You have straight men in a checkmate. Yes, yes. It's like we look at each other and we're like, we both know. You've been socialized to not, but you kind of would. And the kind of doesn't overcome your socialization. And I get that. Look, I don't go into the steam room with Equinox, if that's what you're asking. You can just ask me, okay?

But just like, I mean, no one's all the way gay. No one's all the way straight. I really defy anyone to tell me that they truly are. And I think that's one of the reasons I have such close connections with you guys. Well, thank you. Makes sense. I think this is a subject matter that you should explore more thoroughly in your work. I think I might. Because it's got legs. Huh? It's got legs, I say. Well, I mean, I think I have an idea for a play about some of my very close friendships. Because I do think that a lot of people, I mean, like, again, like, I think that once you are the thing, you are the thing. Like, you said it, you live it, you experience it. But that doesn't mean that, like, an ember of desire doesn't exist there, that, like, we still don't know what to navigate. Because I think that no one knows how to navigate deep intimacy. So, like, there are times I've been friends with women. And I've been like, Oh, I feel so good around you and everything about you. Should we just make out? Like, should we just, that's why like, I don't judge those relationships where you're like, Oh, that's obviously a gay man married to a, like a straight woman, or there's obviously a lesbian married to a straight man. It's just like, no, but like the embers of desires can like. be exploded by one other person. So who knows? I've tried that line before in the past as well. It didn't work out. I just feel really warm around you. I don't know. I think that was the Molly TJ. Well, Jeremy, are you planning to win? Are you going to come back to New York? What's your plan? I don't know. I mean, everyone keeps asking me that. My visa runs out soon. So I think that'll determine some things. But like what are visas nowadays, you know? Exactly. I mean, I genuinely have a fear that I've been watching the Trump like conversations every day or whatever. They're like the Trump like diatribes daily. Yes, yes. Watching those from the UK makes me feel like I'm in 1920s America watching, like, or speak and being like, wait, why is no one rioting in the streets? Like, something feels off. And so I have this weird fear for what the next year under him would look like. And I...

Kind of just like, can I figure out a way to stay here and not have to deal with that? Well, if you're already there and you have no reason to come back, I'm sure it could be. I mean, what's the vibe over there, though? They're not giving out. They're not giving out dates and stuff, are they? It's just kind of like we're doing this for now. Yeah. I think that they're doing this for a good little while. Do you have a lot of friends there? Have you seen anybody? I don't hang out with anyone. We're not supposed to. But I get on the phone with people. So, like, you know, like this is like. Um, the, the people that I know here are all people that I knew from, um, my early times in, uh, in like, like, you know, when I, when I was first meeting people and also some of my new friends I've met on like the fashion circuit and like, because of Slaveway. So like, um, Gwendolyn Christie and I text a lot here. Um, Phoebe Waller-Bridge, um, my friend Nimrod. I know. Oh, shout out to Nimrod, my king. Nimrod's amazing. So it's been really nice to be able to FaceTime with those folks and check in. But I've also been living my Hikikomori life, which has been really nice to just hang out inside, play Civilization, play The Sims, watch anime, read books, and not interact with anyone except for the delivery drivers. Have you been shopping online? I have not been shopping online. You have not copped any gear under core? No. I'm shocked. Not one kimono? Not one kimono. Matches.com has not even stopped at your flat once. I'm bloody shocked. Have you started smoking cigarettes or anything cool like that? Oh, I smoke cigarettes all the time. Hell yeah. Yeah, so I smoke cigarettes, and I've been doing a lot of shrooms in Quar. That's what I ordered online. I asked my boyfriend to pick up shrooms for me in L.A., and they got sent here. Wow, I love this. So that's been my medicine in Quar. Are you exercising and showering and stuff? I shower every morning, and I get dressed fully every day.

As far as exercise, I try. Okay, that's a fair answer. You've been pacing around the flat this whole podcast, haven't you? That's something. Yeah, exactly. That's most of my movement. It's like a good little pace. You're getting your steps in with these important calls. Exactly. I did discover that I've always thought I'm pretty flexible and I used to be really, really skinny. Um, I'm still skinny, but I've never, um, I've always just been like, Oh, I could never have like a sort of like, um, testy body or like, like abs. Like that's just not how my body functions. Cause I would go to the gym like three times and it wouldn't happen. And I was like, okay, see, this is why it doesn't work. And then I quit. But I have been doing push-ups and bicycle crunches right before I go to bed. Yes. I realized after doing that for two weeks that that's all my body ever wanted me to do. I should have just been doing this. This is so easy. Why do you do it before bed? That seems like an odd time. Because I do it as I watch my last episode of television. You stay up late as hell, don't you? Yeah, I stay up until like 8 a.m. Oh, my God. What a fucking lunatic. Who saved up that late? Yeah. Although I did shift it this week. I shifted it to go to bed around 3 and wake up around 11. That's more reasonable, I guess. I mean, you don't cook, do you? No. So this is what I'm going to say. The only people I hang out with are my neighbors. who live right across the, like, I live in a muse, which is like an alley. And so my kitchen windows can look into someone else's kitchen windows. And there are these guys there that work in the jewelry business. They're like very uncut gems. And they're like young guys. And we make dinner and make dinner together. So I bring over the wine. They make the dinner. And we watch a movie like every other night together. I love this. That's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. And otherwise, I just order food.

Well, I mean, I'm glad that you can still get food delivered. It's a luxury. Yeah, it is. If I was buying clothes online and ordering food every day, I feel like I would run out of the money I've made this year. Especially because I'm trying to give so much of it away. This week, I'm starting a grant program for young playwrights where I'm going to give... basically all of the licensing money that like 80 grand or whatever, I'm going to give that all away to new playwrights who were affected by COVID because, you know, it sucks. And like, I want people to feel like they, they can write or even just pay their bills and read for a little bit. And so I'm going to try to help everyone out with that. But if I'm going to, if I want to do something like that, I can't go shopping. Wow, your priorities are much more in order than mine. And I honestly love to fucking hear it. What an inspiration. I need to get my shit together. Well, Jeremy, thank you for joining us today. This was a blast. This was so much fun. Thank you for having me. Of course. And I hope to see you soon. I know. Well, I mean, are you in New York? You're in New York right now, right? I'm in Montreal. I'm going to go back to New York at some point, but unclear when. Okay. How did you get to stay in Montreal? I came here right before they shut everything down. Wow. That's genius. They know me here. In Canada, my name rings bells. You know what I'm saying? They say big CV at the border, and they say, come on through, dog. Oh, my God. I wish I had gone to Toronto. That seems like the right place to be. Yeah, I think Canada in general is the right place to be if you want to stay close to America but not have lunatics running everything. Exactly. That's kind of the vibe. But anyway, thanks for joining us, Jeremy. It was a pleasure. I actually learned a lot today of a lot of questions I've always had, but never known anybody in the in the biz to answer. So I hope I hope everyone enjoys the education as much as I did. I know. I mean, I hope it's not utterly boring for them, like because like for me.

Yeah. Theater is really dumb, but it's fun to like break down the mysteries of it. No, it really is. It really is. I agree. And thank you for giving us your exact dollar amounts for all of those plateau levels as well. That was great. I'd love to hear that. Yeah. I mean, again, like no one knows how much to ask for if no one's being transparent. Well, Jeremy, what's the first thing you're going to do once the quarantine gates are opened up? I'm going to go to a Michelin star restaurant. That's all I miss is eating at restaurants. Michelin. Same. And where can they find you on Instagram and Twitter and stuff? I'm at Jeremy O. Harris everywhere, but follow me on TikTok. That's my real love right now. Great. TikTok is maybe the best social media since Tumblr. Damn. You know what? I still update my Tumblr every day, so I might. I love Tumblr. I miss it dearly. I mean, the thing that sucks is that there's, I mean, there's no porn on, on there unless you're into watching like teenagers kind of like gesture towards porn. Yeah. It's over. Yeah. But otherwise, um, otherwise it's, it's just like Tumblr in the sense of like, it's just as much chaos and, um, yeah, it's fun. It's really fun. All right. Well, I'll go sign up just to follow you. Um, Thank you, Jeremy. We'll talk to you soon. Be safe. Okay. Bye, guys. Later. Thank you.