827. - Thomas Chatterton Williams

All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian. And they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world. And they do it three times a week, Jason. Does that sound familiar to you? We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place. All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcast. or watch on YouTube. How long gone? Steamy, steamy Tuesday afternoon here in New York City. Them jeans. What's really Gucci? It is just a regular... Tuesday morning, 8.47 a.m. PST, PDT, I just learned that there's two different Ps. Yeah, I only know this because of the amount of scheduling that I have to do, and I see them change as options as the season changes. But yes, it's unnecessary, much like daylight savings times to begin with. I don't think we actually need it, but the powers that be are raining down on us as they do. I see the need for daylight savings time. It's baked into the name. It's more annoying than it's awesome, but time zones are already tough enough as it is, even for our world's brightest. Why do we need to have multiple time zones for the same area to have the same meaning? It's a great question. And I'm sure someone. It's like saying like, oh, H2O, that's water. But so is H3O. Yeah, that's for sure. I don't know. So which one should I use? Don't worry. I'm sure there is someone that is going to let you know why this is the case in your direct message inbox. And they're going to be scholarly and smart. It's to. Keep us down. Distinguish if you're in.

Daylight savings time or not. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, no, I mean, it does serve a purpose, but it's also confusing, which is several things in our depressing lives. And if you've made it this far into the podcast, thank you so much. As we dissect nothing. Well, there's so much going on. We got Katy Perry on a date with Justin Trudeau, which is an incredible rebound to go from Orlando Bloom, known hottie actor. hog haver to justin trudeau also known hottie but canadian uh kind of you know royalty really because his you know his father was the prime minister he was the prime minister he comes from a long line of of of uh you know government employees up there and i i think katie's really katie's looking to really make a shift i guess okay do you think it says that they're on a date but we don't really know that because they're just having dinner bro you don't that ain't how it works bro Because he's a known stick man. He's a known low-key stick man. Okay. I think he's getting divorced. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe he's married. You said Orlando Bloom is a known hog haver because we've seen... Like some nude paddle boarding. Is that what it was? That's right. Justin. Yes. Justin Trudeau and his wife, Sophie, announced their separation on August 2nd, 2023. So he's a free. Oh, he's definitely poking on it, bro. He said teenage dream was my shit. Yeah. We reached out to Trudeau's staff to confirm whether or not he was, quote unquote, poking on that. We've yet to hear back. They didn't reply with a no comment, but they did not leave a comment. So do you think... Okay, so PM slid into the DM and... Got him! And Justin's like, hey, what a quinky dink, you're up here in Montreal. And then Katie's like, is there anything to do in this town for a 43-year-old mother of whatever, recent divorcee?

And he's like, yeah, let's get a cuppa. This is great, actually. The jowned pop-up is actually closed. But I believe we could go to Joe Beef if you were feeling like dinner. Well, I mean, we typically... We, meaning us females, we date the opposite of what we were just being poked on, right? Totally. No, you want to go as far away from what you had. And we heard, I forgot, I mean, I won't say who we were talking to, but about Orlando Bloom. And basically it was at the point where Katie was like giving him like iPad time, like get this guy away from me. Like, yes, he's hot. Yes, he's successful and cool, but he's a boy. He's a child. I'm sure she didn't know that when she married him 10 years ago. Yeah, I'm sure that's something that's developed as he's gotten more rich and successful. We don't know. I mean, I would side with you on that. We don't know. The honeymoon, sometimes with Bloom, you got a guy looking like that, hung like that. The honeymoon phase could last 12 to 17 years before it wears off. After the digmatization wears off. When you're that rich. I mean, honestly, this is what happens though. You have a flop album and you start to rethink everything. We got to talk to management. We got to talk to producers. We got to talk to our booking agent. We need to flip the team. We need to start over. And I think Orlando Bloom was a victim of that chopping. I really do. A lot of people say we need to flip the team for you too, Chris. A lot of people in my DMs. Yeah, I mean. Oh, God damn it. I would say, I got an email, a PR person, if you're listening and you're that person, I apologize in advance, asking me if I want to go, like inviting me to go to the 143 tour, the Katy Perry tour. But in the Detroit, Michigan upcoming date, and I, you know, hey, thanks for the invite. Don't live in Detroit, Michigan. Were they offering to...

get you a plane ticket to go see Katy Perry in Detroit, or do they just think that you loved her that much? Just in the off chance, I might be... Sure, if you're spending... If you happen to be spending summer in Detroit... Oh, my summer in Detroit. I mean, people do... The lakes of Michigan are beautiful. I wonder if they were tracking my data, you know, after I've signed up for all these government watch programs. They knew that I was on a layover. Coming back home from Toronto. Can you imagine what a dream that would be to have a layover long enough to leave the airport, see a Katy Perry show, come back and get home and sleep in your own bed? That's galaxy brain shit right there. New goal unlocked. That is different. All right. Well, look, good luck to Katy and her love life. We got a guy with CTE shooting people in Midtown. And I just saw a tweet that said, Luca Sabat looking ass. Where are Luca at right now? Where's Luca? He's in Tokyo. Where's Kareem? I think he's on vacation. There's a lot of people that could be taking the charges for this. But luckily, he did unalive himself. So there's not much left to be done. But CTE is fucking crazy. Except helmet. Yeah, I mean, the CTE shit. That's what could be done. That'll never be done because the NFL makes too much money. It's so rotten from the core. organization but yes not rotten from the core you sound like paramore lyrics right now don't don't get me started i didn't listen to the new 17 uh hayley song she put on her her website but people were very excited about it yeah people are excited uh you know it's fine i listen i don't listen to paramore but godspeed to those who do no shade i'm sure they're great people i i kind of i don't either but i'm happy that i'm not a hater at all one of those it's one of those for me i think it's cool how popular it is because they're like a real band yeah i mean i guess our generation version of that was my chemical rome or or one band before that maybe where it was like yes these guys can play music they could write a catchy song they sell a lot of records and albums good for them but it's just a little too gay for me

and i listen to gay shit well i mean you listen to a different brand it's a different you know there's there's a spectrum there's a large like a spectrum of sexuality there's something like that in a similar in a similar in a similar way i'm um i had to do a shoot this morning at 8 a.m and it is once again bordering on the hottest day of the year Um, so I've, I've sweat through my clothes, uh, before, you know, while the sun was still rising basically. Um, and it's modeling or were you, I was taking, taking, you were taking, but I, but I feel, but I feel like I've had two full days. I kind of like the way this feels. Um, and I, I'm, I wonder if I should start. This is like the hustler mindset. The hustler mindset is creeping where I'm like, damn, I've had two days. And then as soon as I have a free moment, I start thinking about the crisis of masculinity. And then I start thinking about finance. I just can't. I see how this happens. Okay, so you woke up, you beasted a photo shoot, and then sweated through your J.Crew linen, tops and trousers, come home, just absolutely murder a shower. It's noon, and now... I'm still on Tuesday. You're on Wednesday about to podcast with a thought leader, and I'm still trying to figure out where my other sock is. Yeah, you don't know. You're lacing up your shoes. You haven't even left the starting line yet. I'm halfway around the track, big bro. Come on. I got my steps in, okay? I got my morning circadian rhythm sound. Bean and I were stepping out. That's nice. You got to stare at the sun. I'm having MCT powder in my... Coffee. Oh, that's cool. I didn't realize it was 2012. That's good to hear. You don't like sustained energy throughout the day? Wow. Okay, pussy, you don't like sustained energy. I would have taken you for an energy lover. Oh, that's cool. Yeah, I hit my Pilates yesterday after not gone in two, three weeks. And it's really a dice roll, a flip of the coin if you're going to.

come in and be like oh my god i'm so out of shape i'm an awful piece of shit or your body has rested those muscles correctly and then you come back and you're like oh i'm just hitting my deadlift picking right back up where i was and it's actually a little bit easier than it was you know what i mean oh that's good i mean yeah that's good that means i didn't say that i didn't say that's what happened i was beat to shit i was i did i did poorly on this time sometimes it's like oh yeah you know i just i just hiked running and that was i could do that again and then sometimes you're like No, I get that. I get that. I get that. Sometimes the body wants what it wants. All right. We have a guest today. Well, actually, first of all, London, get your tickets. We'll be there at Blondie on the 4th at the 100 Club. And so I think there's a few left. And we're happy to be back. And then in Copenhagen, if you're going to be there, we will be doing the Sunflower After Party. August 6th. You're right. It is six. You're right. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. August 6th, the Sunflower After Party. We'll post about it, but if you want those details, you'll have to probably know us. We're looking forward to it, though, to be back in Copenhagen during the beautiful summer. Also, we did a – this kind of slipped through the cracks, but we did a hat with our old friends, Cowgirl, the clothing company for all of our How Long Gone listeners. It's a cool hat that says Gone Girl on it. They're almost sold out. He said they sold most of them the first day. But there's a couple left. I want to make sure that people knew about them before they're gone. So cowgirletcetera.com is the website. Etcetera spelled out, not abbreviated. A lot of great clothes. I'm a big fan of all their stuff, their punching bag, legendary item, things like that, great hoodies, shirts, keys. Just what you need. I need it more than you. That's true. My Pythons famously slam. Our guest today is Thomas Chatterton-Williams. He's a columnist at The Atlantic. He's written several books. There's a new one called Some of Our Discontent.

which is what I'm feeling right now. But let's tap in with OG and see what he's got to say. When you say our discontent, what do you mean by that? This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Squarespace. Obviously, Jason, you and I spend a lot of time on the World Wide Web, so do our peers, our listeners, our friends, our colleagues, maybe even your parents if they're freaky. And if you're doing anything in the world, writing, taking pictures. I do topless boxing. You need a website. Exactly, a website that works, that does what it's supposed to do, that allows you to be creative but also business-minded. Jason, there's one place to go for that, Squarespace. Yeah, Chris, I'm over here. I'm modifying calculators and putting Claude inside of them so you could cheat at school. And I just want a place where I could have everything all in one place. I can have the SEO tools. So those future graduates can find me and, you know, I'm able to accept, quote, unquote, donations for my services that might be gray area. You know what I mean? And then email campaigns. Hey, I got a new, you know, 2.3 version upgrade. Boom, boom, boom. Get the analytics going. Raise some money. You know, show your investor all of your cool analytics of what's going on. They're going to want to get in early. And we can use Blueprint AI to make your website look as professional. as your competition, if not more. So head to squarespace.com slash howlong for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use offer code howlong to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by a new podcast from The Guardian stateside with Kai and Carter. This is covering a lot of our bases, Jason. It's trying to slow down. The news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's happening in the world. And I know you particularly have quite a lot of questions. A lot of questions. But how often? Because we do this podcast three times a week and that's a sweet spot. How many times do they do? Three times a week. And I have a feeling just based on the platform and these talking points that they're maybe going to be covering different stuff than we do. That's just a guess. The Guardian is not some billionaire owned.

They're not afraid to say what they want to say, brother. Yeah, Rupert ain't sniffing around in what journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman are up to over there at Stateside. But yeah, listen wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch it on YouTube. It's three times a week. And who couldn't use more news? You know, especially when it's not, you know, from here, let's say. Give it a listen. Give it a listen. Oh, this is huge for me personally. This episode of How I'm Gone. It was brought to you by TaskRabbit. Oh, baby, let me tell you something. This is not a joke. I use TaskRabbit a lot because I can't do anything. You need some art hung? TaskRabbit. You need something put together? A cabinet? Got to reach that cheese grater on the top shelf? TaskRabbit. Anything you need, TaskRabbit can take care of it for you. How it works, TaskRabbit connects you with skilled taskers in your area. They can help you move. They can assemble furniture, repairs, yard work, mounting, and more. You can search for a tasker based on cost, skill set, availability, and past client reviews so you know exactly who's showing up and can have confidence that they know what they're doing because taskers have assembled over 3.4 million pieces of furniture, completed 700,000 home repairs. handled 1.5 million moves, and the numbers are just going up, Jason. Yeah, throw a little money at the problem. It's not so expensive, and that job that you really don't want to do is something that another person out in the world is very good at doing and would gladly do it in exchange for a little bit of money. So when life happens, your to-do list grows. Get ahead of it now and get $15 off your first task at TaskRabbit.com or grab the TaskRabbit app using promo code how long taskers book up faster, especially for same day tasks. So book trusted home help today. That is $15 off your first task using promo code how long with the TaskRabbit app or at TaskRabbit.com. All right, what's up? Where are you right now? I am in a hotel room in Nomad in New York. It's just been...

one of those weeks where it's not surprising to me that this has just happened because everything bad that could happen since yesterday has been happening. All right, let's get into it, Chief. How bad are we talking? Let's start at the top. All right, so anybody listening who has children with dual nationalities, I would advise you, just I can tell you with authority, never allow one of the passports to expire. and travel on the other one. Good advice. Okay, you need both is what you're telling us. You need both. I would say regardless of ethnic background, get those passports renewed. Just in general, rule of thumb. Sorry, carry on. I'm here to say regardless of ethnic background. If you have dual, it's only going to make it a stickier situation. Yeah, so yesterday, My son is traveling on his American passport, trying to get back to France. And the Delta that tells me I can't check in because his passport expires in October. But it's a valid passport. The three month rule. We've all learned the hard way. So I show up at the desk and I say, that's for Americans going to France, but he's a French citizen. So then they say, but you can't prove. How do you prove he's a French citizen? You got a French consulate. So we. Lose that flight. Rebook for tonight. This morning, first thing in the morning, we're at the French consulate. They come out. Don't even let us in. They come out on the street to meet us like across from Central Park. And they're like, oh, no, no, no. You're allowed to fly. He's still got a valid passport. It's valid till October. That's fine. No worries. I'm like, OK, that's fine. But they said we have to get a letter from you. Classic French reply right there. That's not possible. The letter is not possible, but he's fine. Not possible. Not possible. And so then I say, well, but he's a French citizen. Oh, OK. So where's his French passport? And I'm like, that's why I'm here. So they just end up saying that the most logical thing is for his mother to fly here and bring the expired French passport. And they're like, and that'll solve it. Because then we can know he's a French citizen and we can then we can give you the letter that you need.

I thought I didn't do that. Y'all can't give me a picture of what won't work? You've got to physically do that. The French consulate said, if you get this kid on the plane with a white woman, we can get this thing squared away and sorted out. No problem. It did say we can't be sure that you're actually his father. You're like, you don't know who you're fucking with right now. You do not know the power that I hold. Coming back to the hotel room. That sucks. realizing that my airpod maxes are shot it's just it makes total sense okay so you're having a you're having a tough time i mean are the kids happy to spend a little more time in new york or is it like what the hell's going on papa both but but definitely like um rolling with it there was a you know a nice taco bell order to the hotel last night damn your kids sound like jason when he's drunk that's crazy can we have the treats again papa yeah i like i like taco bell taco bell is available in in the city of paris correct or no correct but it's not everywhere so it's got it's got to be you know you got to strategically think about where you're gonna go this is this is actually quite interesting because i think a lot of the american fast food is global I assume, but I don't. And we all, of course, know about like, you know, in Scandinavia, they have Max, which is like sort of their in and out that is like better than McDonald's. But to the to the American palate, it's the same shit, really. But does France what is France? Does France have a chicken? KFC is huge in France. Yeah, KFC. In a weird way. Paris is all over Paris. And people eat it. People eat it like – do you think they treat it like fast food or they treat it like a regular – do you know what I'm saying? It's a mental thing. In some immigrant communities, they treat it like a regular restaurant. Yeah, for sure. Like a sit-down. Well, I mean many Americans would argue KFC has one of the finer palm purees available on the market today. That's what they call it there too on the menu. I'm not – I grew up in Atlanta in the 90s, and we would sit down at KFC.

That wasn't out of the question as a family. That was not out of the question at all to do that. American fast food restaurants used to be a dignified place where you could sit inside of it with your family and enjoy a meal. And now it's a good place to see what shapes you smeared feces on the wall. Well, no, you can also charge your phone. You know what I mean? Stuff like that. Most of all, they keep redoing. There's this McDonald's in the East Village. That is like famously shitty. And they like redid it all. And like the whole inside is different. And it was just immediately the same. Like there's nothing. Like it didn't change the clientele. Or the behaviors one bit. They spent millions of dollars to renovate it. And it's like it smells a little better for now. But this is the same. This is not going to change the behavior. The location remains the same. There's no spitting up the place. Yeah you can't. You can spiff up the physical location. It's like when they redid the tile at jail. They're like this is great. And now they're like. There's so much blood everywhere now. You're from the New York area, right? I'm from New Jersey, and my dad is from Texas. I'm not exaggerating what I say. He's never boiled water for himself. That's fire, my man. Unfortunately, I'm not a gold star not cooker, but I hate cooking, and I hate the process. Your dad's the man. This is very cool. He's the OG of this. The few times my mom was in the hospital growing up or had a migraine or something, It was just buckets of KFC. That was nice. Your dad sounds cool. What is his aversion to the art of cookery? Is it just like, I ain't doing all that? It's too good. He really believes he can't. And he's like a very... capable man in other areas like if my mom is sick my dad's almost 90 if she's sick or something my dad like will not actually eat you know he'll just like he has protein drinks that he'll live off of you know like uh like a prepper or something damn this is fucked up because i'm seeing a little bit of a window into my future i think that's a this is sobering but also yeah chris when you're 90 there are people like me when you're 90 you're gonna be able to shuffle down to the sweet green for your shrew mommy no mushrooms i don't think so

I don't know. You're going to have to get one of your cabin boys to do it. Yeah, exactly. Does your dad still live in Texas or where do they live? No, they're in New Jersey. They're in New Jersey. Yeah, they've been in Jersey for a while. He doesn't have to get the Whataburger delivered. I'm sure there's a nice grocery store near him where they have pre-made meals. There's no Erwan, but there's something. Yeah, because he doesn't drive anymore. But he's really from a different time. He has never seen email. If an email comes, my mom prints it for him. That's so sick. He's gotten through this game in a different way. Yeah, that's different. All right, so your dad's 90. He's never seen an email. Does he have a cell phone, or has he ever had one? He has a flip phone that he's had for 25 years for emergencies. Sure, okay, so he's ready. Okay. Did he have a modern car before he stopped driving, or was he still driving the hoop? Yeah, yeah. Okay. He had the S500 out front, but he just didn't use the Bluetooth. Got it. Yeah, exactly. Got it. Old school. Really old school. And kind of amazing. When Twitter first was being a phenomenon in 2009 or whatever, my dad would be like, oh, well, this is amazing for you as a writer because you can just go directly on your Twitter machine. And you can reach your own following through your own presses. He didn't really like software. He's not fully thinking about it as software or a website or anything like that. He's like it's a machine that you use to disseminate your ideas. He's not wrong. He's not wrong. I mean, it complicates it a little bit. But in the essence of that, he is absolutely correct. His thoughts are pretty much in line with Elon Musk right now. Like, what is a machine? You know what I mean? As we move forward. What does it even mean? I would love to have a standalone Twitter machine, personally, to separate that and be only like a Bloomberg terminal for Twitter where I have to buy it and install it in my office. That way I can't look at it all day fucking long, you know? Think of it like a Bloomberg terminal. I wanted to ask you, though, because I liked – you had that piece that was like after Elon bought it, like Twitter was still – It rocks. Yes, thank you. I stand by that. I stand by that. But it's a little bit different now than when you wrote that piece.

I would say I haven't seen a quality drop off. Oh, personally. I don't know. Jason, have you seen a quality drop off? There are some things that I'm a little more annoyed. I think that Twitter staying cool and good has nothing to do with Elon at all. I think Elon, when it first happened, everyone was like, this is bad. And I think the good part was it removed a lot of. Just kind of boring people. Blue sky users. The kind of people that would use blue sky left and it made it better. It removed the blue skies. And then, you know, if you grew up looking at 4chan and, you know, message boards and all this other shit, you're able to sort of self-filter autonomously in your own mind the good and the bad. It sucks getting the ads. It sucks getting the posts that are just like AI slop and all that stuff. But I would rather... Keep scrolling, then get... Pussy and bio. Yeah. Well, slow down now. Slow down now. Pussy and bio could be worse. He's never seen... Jason's never seen anything like that. I find it to be just... I just don't... I think people want it to be bad because they don't like Elon, and they weren't actually using it. and and experiencing that i think that it was like a knee jerk like well this sucks now like the way that like oh my i have to put a bumper sticker on my tesla saying i bought it before he sucked it's the same kind it's like dude it doesn't i say this all the time but like People at that level don't care about anything. And there's a person like that at the top of everything that we use on a daily basis. And that's just kind of what it's going to be. Some are more vocal than others. Some have more kids. Some do more ketamine. But the reality is there's someone like that kind of as the figurehead of every corporation in some varying degree, I think. True. But what do you feel about – I have noticed a market change in my amount of reach. Like, pre-Elon and pre-like what he did to verification and stuff, I used to just have way more engagement. Hey, bro, that's because they're throttling your ass with your opinions. They're throttling you. I'm just posting funny stuff and some videos of, you know, of pavement playing on David Letterman. Like, I'm good. You're doing shit that I like. I think that we all get throttled and things happen for, you know, tons of reasons that we'll never know or understand or care about.

You really just, you know, if you are adopting the quote unquote post and ghost, you know, you shouldn't be reading the comments and you shouldn't be checking the engagement. You shouldn't be seeing who looked at your Instagram story. It's true. You know, it's all pussy boy behavior. So you just have to, you know, that tweet flopped. It could be for, you know, myriad reasons. I don't have time to think about it. Look, as a power user, I've had a lot of flops. It doesn't keep me up at night. I just post through it. I keep going. I trudge through. And I'm a better man for it, I think. I'm a better man for it. I like the attitude. I like the attitude. Posting ghost is a hard thing to adopt. And I learned that from Jason, who I believe adopted it from Joe Rogan, who says that. And that's like his whole thing. I learned everything from Joey. Yeah, you should see Jason do a... a turkish get up it's unbelievable but i don't know i just don't know if um i don't know how realistic it is i think it's good advice when you're at that level and the amount of replies are going to be so sadistic and extreme and in number and tone that you can't You can't do it. But I mean, at my small scale, I could look at it all day and it wouldn't really, you know, it's just going to fuck up my mental. It's not going to waste that much time. Yeah, exactly. It's just going to leave you damaged and scarred. Yeah, it's all good. It's all good. I was really wondering that. I'm glad you stand by that. I mean, I like that article and I really was into it when it came out. I wanted to believe Elon was going to improve it. But now I just think maybe the best thing that happened was that you're right. The best thing that happened was that he broke up that kind of. um like echo chamber and it is segregated out to blue sky which has a lot less influence well that's the thing i just don't think there's any competitor that even comes close and and you can keep trying and like i honestly at this point think threads has the best chance because it's just already on people's but you know what i mean they have the eyeballs already and they can integrate it into your feed it's already there it's on your phone it's much easier

Whereas blue sky is an ugly ass domain that you got, you know, it's just not, it doesn't, it's like using Spotify, use Apple music because it looks good. Same thing. Twitter, Twitter doesn't look good, but it looks better than blue sky. It's not the same thing. Spotify is like 20,000 times bigger than Apple music. So that's, it's not the same thing. Blue sky is a fraction of what Twitter does. But when you see the blue sky, I mean, I know what you're saying. I know what you're saying. But the blue sky, when you see it, it's like somebody who still has like Jason at. spectrum.scglobal.com email address. It just, it lets you know that like, oh, you're just, you're doing, you're, you're existing on a different internet than I am. I'm proud to say I've never looked at it. We might get along, but we won't. I'm proud to say I've never looked at it because I know it ain't for me. Do you have to post? Do you have, do you use it? You're talking about Blue Sky? Yeah. I have an account there. And around the election, there was this kind of big growth of users on Blue Sky. And so like that's when the Atlantic and places all started posting there. And I go on. But it's not for me. I'm not. That's not my that's not my home court at all. Sure, sure. Yeah, that's a very that's a very nice way to put it. But I mean, do you feel like. Because how often do you have something come out with The Atlantic? Is there a certain cadence to it, or is it just you're under contract as a columnist? That's interesting. I would love you to take that up with my employer. I think technically I'm still supposed to be having a regular cadence that I have a contract, a certain amount of pieces. But often what being on staff means is that it's just like also, you know, you know, news helps you write takes. And so it's really not, it's kind of a great place to work because it's really not like they're not counting every word. Like the New Yorker does do that. Like you can, my friends who write at the New Yorker, it's like you can fall into a word deficit and go into word debt.

so the next year you're like working out of a hole so you have to write like however many words you write a year plus 10 how have i never heard this before that's crazy crazy that's some jeff bezos shit that yeah it really is that's like that that wow that's amazing okay so you're saying the atlantic lets you cook basically yeah it lets all the right like it's a it's a it's a great place to work they just want you writing and want you in the mix and and they're really supportive of that um but they're not like sticklers um And at other places, like at the Times Magazine, it's just you eat what you kill for most people. So they might not be sticklers, but if you don't write that article, you're not literally getting the check that you were supposed to get. But the Atlantic has had a pretty big growth in eyeballs, I would say, over the last five years, right? Huge, huge. They're profitable. Yeah. I mean, Nick, a guy I work with at GQ, I think was doing newsletter. Nick Cattucci was doing newsletters there. And I think it seemed like it really grew, you know? Yeah. Do you think there's a reason for that? Or you just think it's just like a good source and it's like, we're talking to him, Chris. No, but I think it is like high minded. It makes you look, I think people like it partly because it makes you look smart. You know, if you're, if you're reading that the way it is with Harper's or the New Yorker or anything else. Yeah. So I used to write at Harper's and they never, I love Harper's, but they never embraced like online publishing at all. Like they really, they really like didn't believe in. You're like, you're like my 10, my 10,000 words on Puffy might be better on the web. You know, like, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know if we need, like, I'm just saying, I think we'd find our audience there a little easier. Yeah. But the Atlantic embraced like online strategies. And I think, you know, just being a place that it is actually a place that isn't able to be completely ideologically pinned down. You know, they publish a lot of different viewpoints and that has found its audience. I think, you know, there's just such support by.

Lorraine Powell jobs. She's really invested in it. So they've hired like a lot of very good writers and editors. So it's, yeah, it's just like, it's got momentum. I find that they do a style of, and I don't like to use this term, but I don't know how else to say it. Like a clickbait, like a story that like the headline like makes you mad. So you want to read it. You know what I mean? Oh yeah. Didn't like, but the James Bennett and the New York times op-ed section really like was, was really mastering that. um like 2016 17 i want to say um with the kind of rage bait header and deck where yeah people were sharing on twitter just to be never reading the article yeah but that's what you need i mean that's kind of unfortunately that's how these places are going to stay afloat well i'm looking at uh the atlantic backslash tcw Trump is right about affirmative action. That's if that's not grabbing you by the dick. I don't know what it is. Yeah, that's that's doing that's doing the work. That's the click. But my only my only response to that is, you know, the writer doesn't title the piece. Of course. I think it's so funny when people don't realize that. And I'm like, because every once in a while I'll get hit with the. bro i'm like you know i don't do that dumbass you work in this industry shut the fuck up you know how it works and it's also like i don't blame right i i think for these things to exist that game has to be played that's just what it is i think it is because yeah If you're in a world where people are not going to the website for most of the traffic, they're actually just getting it through social media. You have to get something that catches them and makes them say, huh, what? That's counterintuitive. So, yeah, it makes sense in the age of sharing articles on Twitter. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I will say one thing that Elon fucked up is I have a lot more issues with, like, the image showing up and all that stuff. And if you post something and the image doesn't work, it does not perform as well. Right. It's like, and I know that's something that is like, it was fine before. You know what I mean? Like it worked, it worked historically for years. And then one day it was just a lot more difficult to get it to work. One day 80% of the staff working there stopped working. We're fine. But like that doesn't, I mean, yeah, they might've broke some code on the way out the door. Yeah. Actually, Elon has for you, you don't, you, you're not in Elon's orbit at all. You're not a crypto guy. You'll never have a Tesla, Chris, but.

In terms of FAA regulations and Twitter image population, Elon has affected your life greatly. No, that's true, actually. I always thought Tesla was stupid. I hate NASA. It all goes in those zones. But I do think that he has affected my life in more ways than maybe I realize. And maybe that's why people hate him so much, just because he's affected all of our lives in ways that maybe you don't realize. Why do you hate NASA? All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Quince. Jason, the temps are warming up. It's getting hot out there. Summer always changes how I get dressed. I need pieces that feel lighter, more breathable, and they're just easy but still put together. I don't want to look like a slob. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high-quality essentials that feel and look amazing. Breathable linen and soft organic cottons. Well-made basics but without the luxury markups. That rare balance where everything feels elevated. but still effortless. Yeah, Chris, linen season is here. I wore a linen blazer to dinner a few nights ago in the warm California sun. But, you know, you got that Italy trip coming up this summer and quality European linen pants and shirts. Upgrade that look starting at just $34. You know, if you get a nice linen suit, a little t-shirt underneath it, some chill shoes, you're looking good, but you're staying cool. The inside of your special areas are nice and dry as you turn up with your besties. So elevate that summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com slash how long for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns, even on a nice holiday now available in Canada. That is Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash how long. That'll get you free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince punto com slash how long. Hi Talk House Network listeners, it's your old friend Nels Klein from Wilco here. Wilco is touring this summer and we'd love to see you somewhere on the road. We're playing shows this June and July in Rochester Hills, Michigan, Chautauqua, New York, Lafayette, New York, Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, Vienna, Virginia, Forest Hills, New York, Portland, Maine, Tulsa, Oklahoma, Memphis, Tennessee, LaGrange, Georgia, Charleston, South Carolina.

Virginia Beach, Virginia Wheeling, West Virginia and Columbus, Ohio plus there are even more dates some with Willie Nelson that I didn't even mention here so please go to wilkoworld.net to see the full list of dates we'll see you on the road this summer study and play come together on a Windows 11 PC and for a limited time college students get the best of both worlds Get the Unreal College deal. Everything you need to study and play with select Windows 11 PCs. Eligible students get a year of Microsoft 365 Premium and a year of Xbox Game Pass Ultimate with a custom color Xbox wireless controller. Learn more at windows.com slash student offer. While supplies last. Ends June 30th. Terms at aka.ms slash college PC. I just think Spake's exploration is stupid and a completely pointless pursuit. I have no interest in any of it. I think it's a waste of money and time, not for political reasons, for strictly like – Chris believes if you have the time to worry about space, you're not working hard enough. Yeah, no, I'm not even – Here on Earth. Exactly. I just don't think that there's any – It's all ego driven is what it feels like to me, because whoever is in charge, whether it's the president or it's NASA or whoever, they want to discover something new so they can say they discovered something new. I don't think it's because they want to, you know, touch grass with a new life form. I think it's I think it's I think it's I think it's I think it's I think it's partial ego driven and partial childlike wonder that you don't seem to have. I mean, having childlike wonder as an adult, I mean, unless you're an imagineer, I don't know what the fuck good that's going to do you. I just don't know. I mean, I don't think – I also think NASA whored the brand out too much, and it's become – it's like an Urban Outfitters t-shirt that has no meaning. Whereas at one point, I'm sure it was considered this amazing organization that was at the forefront of new – like pushing the boundaries or whatever. Yeah, yeah.

tweeted something like that a few years ago making not quite as strong cases made but hating on nasa and the amount of you know stands that i mean that was really something that enraged people when i said like i just don't get i just don't get it it's that it is that simple yeah well what's thomas what's what's your argument against space something that uh chris just touched on which is like i really do think that um Earth is our one place to really live and care about, and everything else out there is a distraction. We have to have this thing completely in order, I think, before we're really putting all of our resources into getting to Mars. I think that's a really measured and smart way to talk about it. My way is a little bit more. knee-jerk, let's say. I really agree with what you're saying. I just don't get the childlike wonder. People post these pictures of the cosmos, and I'm like, is it me? Are you all just pretending to think that that's the illest thing you've ever seen in your life? Bro, you've got to be playing with me. I know that's not the coolest thing you've ever seen. We should get David Cho on here for him to make a case for space, because he's looking at the cosmos. I would say, like you said before, Thomas, let's put on our mask first before we help this person sitting next to us on the plane. We're days away from America and the world imploding from the inside out for 20 different reasons. Let's worry about that first. Let's spray our house with water first before we go put out a fire on the other side of the world. But I have to say, I go both ways as far as like... I love taking in some beautiful architecture, of course, but going to an old building in Rome, I'm like, yeah, it's old. That's sick. I don't know what to tell you. It's the same way I'm looking at the cosmos. I'm like, yeah, I know that's there, and I know that it's unbelievable, but I just can't get excited about it. Oh, you're expanding that to Roman architecture.

I just don't care. I just don't care. I recognize how important it is and that it's the literal first society. I understand all of that, but I don't need to go look at those buildings. I don't care. You're really a contemporary man. You're really living in this moment, in the present. I see. But see, I'm living in 1996, which maybe is not the best. But I just mean I think that we're taught that those things are so fascinating. But once you see it once and kind of understand what it is, I leave it there. I don't continue that fascination. I've had the same thoughts with old buildings and Torah. You know, I don't need to go walk in. Oh, cool. Is this a new building? It's old. But when I went to the Vatican and checked all that shit out, edible or not, I was. I was taken aback, and I feel like maybe at some point, Chris... I wish I could say the same. I went to the pyramids, bro, and I was like... Oh, that's interesting. Before you die, they're going to drop a new planet, and you're going to be like, okay, I get it now. All right, fuck it. A new cluster. You felt that way at the pyramids? This is deeper than that. I love Cairo. I thought Egypt was amazing. I would go back tomorrow. I think that the problem is with all of that stuff or even in Greece, all that stuff is just so touristy. It doesn't feel like anything. Like when you actually go see it, it just feels like another line to wade in with a bunch of sunburned Europeans. It doesn't feel like anything special. And I think that's just where we're at. I'm sure if I would have saw the pyramids, you know, alone in the 70s on drugs, I would have been like, this is the craziest thing I've ever fucking seen. But you go in modern times and there's guys hustling you for photos with a camel. There's a KFC. Yeah, literally. I think that is really what I mean. And Rome is a similar thing. Rome in the summer is like the most populated place in the world. It's hell on earth. You can't go anywhere. Obviously, it's beautiful. Obviously, it's historic. But the things, viewing them isn't special anymore because of what we've turned it into. I had one experience that I would separate. I understand what you're saying. I'm kind of...

In between, because when I was in Athens or in Egypt, I had this sense that so much of the world we live in was created in these places. And the third place, Rome is in that mix a little bit later, but the third truly ancient place that I had this feeling was Jerusalem. And I had a very, that was different than Athens or Egypt with the Taurus. I was standing, if I pronounce it correctly, in the Garden of Gethsemane. where essentially they do still know where Jesus was when he was betrayed. Well, if Jesus exists, let's pump the brakes a little bit. Historical Jesus. All right, fine, fine. Where he was like praying to his father. I mean, that's pretty fucking insane. The olive tree is like 2,500 years old. So it's crazy. You know what I'm saying? yeah that's insane it is essentially some of the same like plants that were there when he would have been there and you're standing and i was completely alone there and then you walk up the via dolorosa to to golgotha the site of his crucifixion and it's all still there and knowable like that was where he like faltered with the cross and i was there in january the weather sucked and there was like really not many people there and i did i felt like that was a profound I appreciate that. I think that's a reasonable – I mean, I think as a person who was raised going to church, you know, I would maybe even – even though I don't believe in God or care at all, I would maybe even feel the same way because that's like – I don't believe in God either. More hardwired in my brain than like, oh, the Sphinx. You know, it's like a different – it's a different thing. But being there alone had to help. That had to help. Yeah, it was a trippy experience actually. And I imagine – yeah, if you were wandering around – I mean, I was standing kind of – There weren't many tourists with me when I was standing in front of King Tut. Did you see that? Sure. Yeah. His toes were, this is too old. This is too old. You know what? I got to draw a line, bro. Jesus stuff is fine, but King Tut, he needs a pedicure. I've seen your little sarcophagus. It was all right. A little old for my liking. You said King Tut needs a pedicure. His toes were wild. Okay, so Jerusalem hit different when you're alone. King Tut.

Foot game is wild. There's a lot of historical discoveries happening on today's episode. This is good stuff. I mean, have you been all these places just because? Like research or just fun or a little bit of both? A little bit of both, but I have often been pleasure mixed with I'll write something about. So I wrote, I got to go on this like Ill Nile cruise. for travel and leisure magazine. I did a Nile. I did a Nile. I went to a wedding in Cairo and to get to the venue was a Nile cruise. It's pretty fly, right? That shit was, I loved it. I loved Cairo, like I said, but that was something where I was like, I'm really glad I did this. This is really cool. This is really cool and really special. And I felt like it was worth all of the effort and almost getting my phone stolen, trying to get home. Yeah. I went to Jerusalem. The French fashion magazine sent me to Jerusalem. Excuse me. to write an article about going to israel and they said to write about jerusalem and they said you can write about anything any way you want to do it but just don't talk about politics okay all right well send me to iowa next time then because we got some this is a loaded request i go to go to italy and don't write about pasta or yeah yeah that's not as tough food but I went to Athens a couple of times, and one of the times I wrote about taking my daughter to Plato's Academy, which is really amazing because the academy that Plato founded where he taught Aristotle, they discovered like 100 years ago, its foundation is still there. And it's just like in this suburb of Athens next to like a used car repair shop. Like an auto repair shop. Damn. So you're saying they resurrected a school in the ashes? Like you can go learn there if you're your daughter? No, no, but you can stand in the actual building that Plato taught Aristotle in. And then Aristotle taught, and like the stones are still there. It's now a raising canes, but it's still there. Yeah, yeah, they've expanded. How old was your daughter at the time?

She was seven. And I was just explaining to her that, like, you know, my dad grew up under segregation in Texas. Like no one had ever gotten an education in his family. And when he was a young boy, he stumbled upon Will Durant's The Story of Philosophy. And he saw a picture of Socrates in there. And then he went to the library at some point and got Plato's Dialogues. And that was basically when he was like. I don't understand all of this, but I understand that, like, whatever is in these books and the way they admire and prioritize knowledge, that's the thing that's going to get me out of, like, the circumstances. So it's like a family history. Yeah, I mean, do you think Seven is too young to, like, understand that? Or do you think that maybe she'll get it later? Or do you feel like she got it then? I think she got a lot of it. this whatever happened in this room that we're standing in like over millennia like it reached out and changed like like a poor black boy's uh life in texas and it basically made the two of us possible here so i said we kind of oh you broke you broke that shit down for her you gave her some bite-sized info that she could she's like all right i got you dad i got it now i got it and then i wrote the article and and then uh That article, actually, that ended up getting me hired at Bard. The president of Bard College read it, and it was like, oh, you should come teach here. You've got a love of humanity. Damn, Bard. I didn't know. Look, you talk about white women. Bard is kind of the ground zero. I see you. I see you. I'm about to stoicism myself into some white pussy up in here. Sorry. Do you still teach or no? I do. I teach every spring semester there. Okay, so do you come? It's not on Zoom. You're doing it IRL. Yeah, I do the more unusual commute between Paris and the Hudson Valley, but I'm mostly there during the spring semesters. Yeah, what's up? Why do you live in Paris? You just love it? I got French kids, man. Okay, you got French kids. All right, so do you find the customs? Because I find France tough. Oh, you do? I don't.

The people don't really work for me. I mean, obviously, the women are beautiful. I understand where you're coming from. But I find it is like people think New York is rude. And I find New York actually to be really welcoming and not like that at all. And it sort of has this like we're all in it together. kind of vibe because you live in a shithole and it's hard and everybody knows that no matter how rich you are and Paris I just don't get I've been countless times and I I just don't I can't crack the code they can tell you're a tourist Chris when you're in New York if you're you can tell when New Yorkers can tell when someone's a tourist and they don't give them the same respect and we're all in this together. I don't think they give them the same respect, but I don't think they try to shut them out. I think it's a very different thing. I think it's like they're happy to take your fucking money. The French are snottier about it. Yeah, the French, like you should, I'm sure France survives on tourism. I'm sure that's one of the biggest, you know. Most visited city in the world is Paris. But, I mean, you're talking to somebody that just got shut down brutally at the French concert. You're like, right now is a great time to talk about this. But but no, Paris is interesting. And France is interesting because you meet like I'm, you know, 44 years old. And so I've been there for 15 years. You meet all these like American dudes who are stranded there with French kids. You have a support group. You have a support group. There's a bunch of brothers out there. Why are you here? No one is ever like, oh, I got an amazing job and I moved here. The only person that ever is American that got a good job is like Virgil Abloh, Mark Jacobs. Those are the only jobs that an American ever moved. Virgil's the only guy that's gotten a job in Paris. Fell in love with somebody and is like there. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we have a friend, Jeremy, and he lives in Berlin and he said the same thing. He's like, I have all these friends and it's like they married a German, you know, and like we're here and we find each other and like our kids are friends or whatever. But so do you feel like after 15 years, though, do you feel localized or is it still feel like I'm not?

this ain't home no i definitely feel localized and it's home your restaurants still charge you more but it's good because you're you are not ever going to be uh there's no 10 years in paris and you're parisian the way there is in in new york you're just not yeah you're not a local so i actually find it really liberating to like um to just tune i can like tune out to a degree there like i have my life i i have I've been in my same neighborhood for like a long time and that's all good. But like, I don't have to pay attention to all of the, I can kind of tune out and just focus on my writing and be a foreigner in a very liberating way. I based out on the Metro, not listen to people's conversations. But the ideal way for me has been what I've had for the past few years, which is to really like live in Paris and in New York and to go back and forth. It's a little bit complicated, but I like being a local and I like. stepping out of being native and getting to be a foreigner so that you kind of work in in conjunction but like i wouldn't i think after this i didn't mean to immigrate there and i would have kind of i would be more like what you're talking about if i were only living in france and that was my entire Existence? Yeah, existence for the indefinite future. There are just these times, like on a Sunday, it's really raining. It's like Sunday in February, and you have to go to, like most things are still closed because they have this old kind of Catholic tradition of like Sundays being, you know, nothing is open. And you go to like a formal priest supermarket to get something. It's the most depressing place. And you come home and you just like stare at your... your electrical socket and you just, it doesn't look like what an electrical socket looks like. And you just say, why am I here? You're like, after 50 years, I still look at that socket and get pissed off. That's real. Little things. It's just little things. That's really funny. That's a great example of something that I'm sure would bother me as well. I'm sure it's, but I mean, I think it's, it is, I mean, obviously it's a beautiful place and it's like pretty unbelievable on every level.

I just something about it. I feel like I go to places and I know immediately like whether I like this or not. And weirdly, Paris has never been. Paris has been one that's like a teeter totter. We're like sometimes I have a great time. Sometimes I never want to come back here again. Are you like a UK London guy? Bro, you already know. Of course. Yeah. I mean, they speak the language and it's easy to get around. And like, yeah, I think also culturally it's. as relevant or at least in the same category as new york whereas paris is paris is extremely relevant and like especially obviously fashion but like it's not this it's not center of the world vibes the way that we consider new york to be when you take the eurostar from guarding northern paris that you get off the saint pancras in london you're just like okay i came from like a smaller kind of like provincial continental capital and i arrived in like uh they both look they both have bad coffee but you know one at least they understand me when i order it you know that's it but it does i know that jason you're right they know that i'm a tourist and i don't pretend to be anything else because i'm not like i can't look at me i'm like a big dumb white guy i can't i can't speak french i'm not going to pretend to be that that that feels more disrespectful to me yeah they love new yorkers what what about you jason when you when you Where do you travel? I mean, when I travel, I usually feel good. I try to endear myself to the locals, and I speak a little bit of Spanish, so then I just transfer that into whatever language I'm in. It doesn't work so well in France, but Italy, you can get pretty far speaking Spanish to them. But, I mean, I'm kind of the same way they know. I'm really tall. I'm 6'9", so they see me coming, and they're like, You know, this guy, I'm going to charge him more money for whatever I'm about to. How tall are you? 6'9". Are you really? Real talk. Wow, really? Okay. They're probably trying to suit you up for the next game. Wow. That's the thing. They do have a French league. My brother first came to visit me some years ago. He just said,

hola to the to the taxi driver and and that kind of big taxi driver shot me like a pained expression and i was like why did you do that you're like that's the only born language i know hola that's actually very cool what i'm trying i tried some other shit what do you want me to do not english so i did yeah i mean i i've i've been to spain and i feel like my spanish works better in italy than it does in spain oddly enough but Well, we're going to Europe soon. We're going to go see Oasis this weekend in London and then go to Copenhagen, which I... that's another place where chris is warmly welcomed because he could until he opens his mouth he looks like he could be from there that's true two places i'm welcome just visually copenhagen and a blue lives matter gym those are the two those are the two places just visibly that they like me and then they get to know me and they're like never mind this guy's not really part of our tribes you know they're not he's not really down i mean i like scandinavia a lot though that's probably my i mean obvious for for obvious reasons but i just find that it's um It just works for me. You know what? Because stuff is good. Yeah. Like Copenhagen, whether you like it or not, everything is very good. And that's what New York feels like to me. Like 100 percent. Yeah. Everything is done right. And it's like obviously it's cleaner and people are better looking, et cetera. But from like a food, coffee, like transportation, everything is just better. You know, it's done right. Stockholm is mind blowing. Oslo, Stockholm, Copenhagen. These are extraordinary cities. You go and see like what public housing looks like in Stockholm. Yeah, it's definitely nicer than my apartment here. It's like architecturally nicer than a lot of spots in New York. Yeah, it's crazy. But like like big glass windows, the back of the apartment is all glass. No, it's like they just do that. You look in people's you walk around at night and you look into people's windows and it's just it's cozy. It's yes. Well done. It's also just eye-wateringly expensive, though, when you do those conversions. Those cities are just... Well, I mean, at least the tax goes to something that benefits you. The places you could eat off the ground. You know what I mean? I don't know what's going on in New York. I feel like I'm melting. There's holes in the road. I don't know what's going on. It's not the same. And I'm paying an astronomical amount of tax to be in New York City. That's very true.

Last time I was in Copenhagen, you swim in the harbor. You can swim in the actual harbor. It's so clean. Imagine that. Imagine that. If you go Kramer style into the East River, it's not going to be sweet for you. I mean, I live in Los Angeles. I grew up in Surf City, USA. And every day on the news, they're like, why wouldn't it be wise to go in the ocean? because, you know, there's liquid diarrhea or a toxic spill or oil or ash from the fires or whatever. So, like, we essentially have an ocean that is uninhabitable now. That's bananas. Were you near the fires? No, I was sort of in the middle of in between the two dueling fires, and they never really touched me. So I never had to evacuate. I held strong. But it messed up the air. And it messed up even the water. Yeah, it fucked everything up. That shit was very gnarly, but I still don't think people realize how gnarly it was. Jason and I were at dinner with a friend the night when it really kicked off and we were in the valley and it was like nothing was happening. And our house is in West Hollywood. It was like nothing is happening. It felt very segregated to those areas where it completely destroyed them. You know, Pleasantville just continues on, sort of, in some ways, even though the Palisades and Altadena are gone. It's strange. It's strange. Yeah. Seeing what the damages looked like when you drive down to Malibu, just unbelievable. Yeah, it's crazy. It's crazy. But people don't want to feel sorry for quote-unquote rich people. That was a huge part of it from, like, a culture standpoint. Is that crazy Kanye Taddao Ando house burn? Oh, Kanye is abandoned. We can't tell. It looks the same before and after the fire. I'd have to go down there and really kick the tires. I can't tell from photos. It burned down to the foundation, but that's all it was. He was going to work on windows and doors, but then, yeah. In the last five years, there's been a lot of disasters and things affecting the downtown area, the inner cities.

all the protests and riots and blm and covet and all this stuff you were able to live in pleasantville in the palisades in malibu and be like you know i'm not i don't really need to wear a mask and i don't really need to do a protest because i walk outside and everything is beautiful and then the fires came and they you know they say bitch you thought and now we're all kind of on the on the level playing grounds but also just like how we've recovered from the fires it was six months ago And we don't think about it at all anymore unless Adam Carolla posts a video about something in Malibu or Scott Galloway talking about it or something. But you just forget. You just move on. Things, yeah, it's just over. For better and for worse, I forget I was in a line of 10,000 cars at Dodger Stadium so a guy could stick his hand in my car door and give me a shot. And I drove home. had del taco you know like it's all just you just forget it that's how you got your vaccine yeah in dodger stadium dodger by the way thomas thomas i haven't seen proof of his vaccination he says that he i don't i don't want to start any rumors but i've never seen the card just to be clear just to be clear go ahead jason i'm sorry it's all good it's all good but yeah we i remember it to this day and i remember i was wearing a shirt i was wearing a long sleeve t-shirt and i had to take my shirt off because i couldn't just roll my sleeve up so then I was driving in this line with my shirt off at Dodger Stadium, so it had like a party feel to it. But it was more or less like we're going to the gulags kind of style of single file, but you're in your Prius. And then, you know, people are, you know, how many people you got in the back? And, you know, it was like a military state, but also like a fun party. I was probably listening to a podcast at the time. I mean, that sounds kind of ill. I mean, that's better than most people's COVID. vaccination story. We're a drive-through culture here. LA was a good, yeah. Not a super walkable city. Yeah, it's in and out. It's the same shit, bro. It's like, this Chick-fil-A, just give me your arm. Give me your arm. So what, your book, Summer of Discontent, you got a book or something? We're closing in on eight minutes left, so let us know what the book's about. Yeah, well, it touches on some of that. Just, you know, this was a moment, this was, I would say,

2020 lasted about two years. I think 2021 was also absolutely bananas. And there's really a before and after. So, you know, I was trying to, with this book, understand the kind of events and ideas that brought us from from this Obama era where everything seemed like it was really just moving in a more and more. harmonious direction. And then the era of Donald Trump and then the kind of the great awokening and this moment of breakthrough when our lives were put on pause and everybody became, you know, stuck at home looking at their screens and thinking about this horrific death that we all saw and the kind of the marches and the protests against racism that the death of George Floyd inspired. They were actually the largest manifestations for a single cause and for an anti-racist cause in the history of humanity. You know, there were 8,000 manifestations in America, but they were in Helsinki. They were in South Korea. Yeah, it was like a global. It was. Nothing like that has really happened before over the death of one. It was a global super spreading event as well, which is the other dark side of the coin. So it's trying to make sense of that. And then, you know, the kind of. the progressive overplaying of the hand that inspired this extraordinary backlash that we're now living through. And I think that, you know, you can't talk about the redemption and return of Donald Trump in a vacuum. You know, in part, it's a response to things like fiery but mostly peaceful protests, you know, the kind of gaslighting that was happening, you know, the... The squandering of expertise that happened in the conversation around vaccination, around how COVID works and about lockdowns. Are you saying that some of the people I followed on Instagram weren't actually medical experts when they were talking to me? Because I thought I found some value there, but I think you might be onto something. I mean, they were medical experts until the invasion of Ukraine. Then they became experts on geopolitical international relations. You saw that. There's something else.

It's funny that you, I, I think it's funny to go deeper on that time because I think most of us have, have tried to do nothing but forget it. Yeah. It's just like, I think it's like a place that people don't want to go to, but I do think that you have a lot of, you're, you're making a lot of great points. Like we wouldn't be here now. Everybody's so unhappy without that happening. That's a direct result. It really is. Those things work together. They're inextricably related. And I think you can't really understand how to counter trope if you never face the fact that when you and your worldview was dominant, you really overplayed your hand in certain ways that inspired. uh an increasingly multi-ethnic plurality of americans like not just white americans but like more black and latino americans than in the past to say whatever trope offering is more desirable than the way y'all were doing things i mean i think that that is a so i'm this book is essentially trying to bear witness to um a lot of the things that happen that people are in fact trying to memory hold there's always this kind of response that's like that never happened and then when you prove that it happened it was like well It was fine that it happened, you know, so, you know, there was never rioting. No, there was rioting. Well, then that was justified, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's just trying to make sense of some of these contradictions and ultimately, you know, argue for a saner path forward. But, you know, I think basically from the second administration of Barack Obama around when Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown were killed and Black Lives Matter started, you have this moment of. progressive social justice orthodoxy that increasingly dominated all of the institutions. And you had the kind of cancel culture that worked on social media and Twitter. And, you know, people were really living in a climate of fear. And that great awokening is an annoying word, but whatever you want to call it, that thing that started around then. It ended around October 7th, 2023, when, you know, DEI and all of the intersectionality and stuff broke after the Jews at Harvard and other places claimed a kind of victim identity that was not able to be recognized in the intersectional matrix. And so then you have this kind of backlash and this crumbling of the idea of the oppressor, oppressed binary that was always so easy to do in theory. But in practice, it's a lot more complicated.

So the book goes from the early Obama era all the way to just at the point where Trump is reelected and tries to make sense of that time period. Oh, good luck with making sense of that. I'm glad I was going to take a couple hundred pages, I would guess. You know, if I'm going to put my money on it. It's a difficult book to elevator pitch because it also I turned it in 18 months late. And that was actually like a blessing because 2020 was not the whole story. The end. Not at all. Not at all. That was the beginning. Yeah, in a lot of ways, that's the beginning. I mean, yeah, I think that that is, I mean, a lot of what you're saying is definitely true. And I think it's just so obvious to me in some ways, you know, that like, oh, well, everything is going to have a reaction, you know, and that's how culture has worked since the beginning of time, really. Whether political or even artistic or music or whatever, that's like what happens, you know. Yeah, nothing happens. in a vacuum is you know everything inspires a response you know and the response here wasn't to move back to normal it was just swing hard hard in the right where you have instead of getting the kind of extra respect for trans communities or something that you get the gleeful disrespect of those communities it's not just a return to normal it's it's the kind of vice signaling that now happens where you have to hear one more fat white guy talk about trans athletes i'm gonna fucking put my head through a wall shut the fuck up you are losers like leave these people alone like this is crazy it's insane so we're now living in a kind of you know a hellish reactionary period um and you know The ideal would be to somehow swing it back to common sense in the middle. But do you think that common sense can ever reign again? I don't know if it can. I would like to turn that question to you and ask you, because I just assume that everybody felt like 2012 was a moment that we were living in common sense. I would love to return. You want to go to 96, but I'd be happy like 2012. I want to go to 96 based solely on what was on college radio. It has nothing to do with what you're talking about, just to be clear.

But yeah, I mean, I think that I just don't know. I think that there's just too many information sources. Yeah. And there and there are two. It's too much. It's just too much. I just don't think we can ever get back there. I really don't. I don't think we should all just be always talking to and at each other and knowing what everybody thinks about every issue. I think social media is so instrumental in the breakdown of democracy. It's really not been worth it. I think, you know, it just hasn't. Bro, I've got a lot of followers. Don't say that. We need gatekeeping again. We just need a few people on TV. Welcome home. Welcome home, Thomas. Welcome home, Thomas. We'll get there eventually where it's just people making money. But I think politics makes too much money, and talking about politics makes too much money to ever have a sane president again. Oh, yeah. And I feel like we all know that all politicians lie. to us and we're okay with it as long as they're charming like obama or you know at the time we didn't like george w but looking back at him now not so bad in comparison to what we've got going on right now just in terms of a presidential person who puts the country at ease and says yes there's a lot of bad shit going on sometimes we gotta bomb a country sometimes they gotta bomb us whatever it is but if you just have a person who can talk presidentially we can all just sort of unclench our assholes a little bit more and enjoy life, like when we were listening to MGMT. Have you ever gone back and seen old clips of George W. Bush speaking? Is he just a killer? At the time, everybody said he's the most inarticulate president we've ever had. At the time. Donald Trump and Joe Biden. And it's like, George W. Bush looks like a scholar. He was amazing, actually. That's funny. And when he was in office, he was... Hitler and, you know, a serial killer combined into one. He was the worst person of all time. He obviously did a lot of bad shit. So it was warranted. And we should always be making fun of the president, you know, in comedy. Now that's something that's something we all agree on. And people talk about that. That's the problem nowadays is every comedian stopped making fun of Trump because they were all hoping to get him on their podcast so they wouldn't say anything bad about him. And then six months later, now they.

because they wanted the epstein files released now they're anti-trump flip-flopping again it's it's i mean it's a whole other pod we can do this i did i did see because i was getting tired of the trump thing even though it's funny but then he cheated playing golf and they caught it on video and i was like this is just this guy is too good that's too funny like what am i supposed to do he had his caddies cheat for him on the golf course he's not a professional golfer there's no anything at stake here it's just It's insane. He's a wild individual. He's a really wild man. This is too wild. It's easy to not take a person like that seriously. It's more difficult when they're the leader of the free world. Of course. Yeah, of course. When you remind yourself what he is capable of as a fat guy who cheats at golf, it's a little bit. Those two things are definitely at odds. If he really deports Rosie O'Donnell, then you could be next. Nah, my cold, dead hands. We're not taking Rosie. Reason for leaving America? The president thought I was a fat bitch, so I'm out. I was just asked to go. I said I'd go willingly. I didn't want to argue with him. I didn't want to argue with him. How do you all feel about Eric Adams? I mean, he's funny. Same thing. He's awful, awful for the city. Really funny. As like a social media news construct machine. Almost touching in a way, because he's not evil. You know, I don't think he's evil. I think he's dumb and like wants to have fun. Yeah. And like he just wants to get that lay flat seat to Paris. And if you have to fly to Istanbul and transfer, he'll do it. I mean, I'm not above that. I'm not above that at all. If I got to say if I got to take a little change in the UAE, you know what I mean? Yeah, I guess if the only goal is like if I get my lay flat seat and my snifter of Kovacier, I'm a happy man. It's the people who are like. As long as I can get control of this Fortune 500 company and get this person assassinated and blah, blah, blah. I'm okay with Eric having attainable needs. Eric Adams is really funny and really bad in the same way Trump is really funny and really bad. And I think that might be what we want in these people now. I think it's reassuring in some ways. I mean, I guess that it's just like at least you can laugh at it.

You can separate how bad they are from how stupid and funny they are, and those two things can coexist, and you can not like them but still laugh when their makeup looks bad on Fox News. 100%. Unfortunately, yeah, the culture changed when everybody decided that the most important qualification was if you want to have a beer. Sarah Palin was really the John the Baptist figure here. Damn, you gave Sarah Palin a lot of credit, but I see where you're coming from. Yeah, she prefigured Trump. Which is why we need to teach our good-willed, mentally healthy people. how to have a beer with somebody otherwise because you know i think you're saying education is the key education is we got to get people wanting to have beers with smarter people well i mean this is which is why chris and i will be running for office at some point because we are awesome to get a beer with and we're not evil so it's like It's a safe bet. We hit 19 and we're going to stay. We're going to break in and local school board stuff kind of get started on the ground floor, move our way up. I'm not super great with numbers. Comptroller might not work for me, but some things in that zone before we get to the big leagues. Before we hit our stride. It could be worse. All right. We appreciate you. Thank you, Thomas, for joining us on How Long Gone. The book is out now everywhere you want to buy it. August 5th. Oh, it's August 5th. Oh, soon. Okay, so just like a week or so. Okay, great. Book is out August 5th. I'm sure you can follow along at The Atlantic for all of your ranting and raving. We'll see you soon, hopefully. Thank you. This was fun. Thank you, guys. Oh, of course. Sorry for the technological complications. It's okay. You'll be paying for that for the rest of your life. Don't worry about it. Thanks, Thomas. Good talking to you.

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