054. - Alex Frank

All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian. And they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world. And they do it three times a week. Jason, does that sound familiar to you? We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place. All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcast. or watch on YouTube. Want to make a podcast? Spotify's got a platform that lets you make one super easily, then distribute it everywhere, and even earn money. We like that. All in one place for totally free. It's called Spotify for Podcasters. And here's how it works. Spotify for podcasters lets you record and edit podcasts right from your cellular telephone or your computer. So no matter what your setup is like, you can start creating today. Then you can distribute your podcast to Spotify and everywhere else, those other places that podcasts are heard. Video podcasts are also available on Spotify. And when you want to take conversations with your fans to the next level, Q&As and polls are the best way to get them talking. With Spotify for podcasters, you can earn money in a variety of ways, including ads and... and podcast subscriptions. And best of all, it's totally free. Zero catch. We've been using it ever since we started How Long Gone. And ever since I discovered Spotify for Podcasters, I feel like having the option of turning off the Q&As and the polls on the user dashboard has really helped boost my creativity and take it to another level. I highly recommend giving it a try. Download the Spotify for Podcasters app or go to www.spotify.com slash podcasters to get started.

Curious Black. What's up? It's Jason here. How Long Gone Podcast. Oh, you already know what the fuck is going on. What up? Oh, man. Just having a little sinking spell before I called you. I had to shut my eyes for a few minutes. One of your spells? Well, Jason, when you are putting in the kind of work that I am on a daily basis on your body, it's tough not to give it the rest it needs and deserves. Are you feeling sore right now? Or is it just general fatigue, your mobility? What's going on? I would say a little more general fatigue. Yesterday, I had a very tough session with a trainer where I learned to go upside down on the gymnastics rings, which is very difficult of a matter of my stature. uh trainer was there to help me you do that all by yourself or you have a friend well he's a paid friend um so i guess it's i guess i mean most of my friends are paid friends at this point i guess so that's right you know i would consider you more of a colleague than a friend it ain't it ain't tricking if you got it though chris damn hell yeah that's right yeah thank you for spinning that back um yeah that i mean so the gymnastics rings That has been a big focus of yours, which is pretty interesting because whenever I see people do that on TV or maybe at a public park and they're swinging around, I feel like that's an activity that's reserved for some real true athletes only. There's no real half-step in there. Yes, and although I like to call myself a real athlete, that's obviously not true. I'm just a guy. I am just one man. I'm just one man, but I think this proves, you know, mercifully that even regular bros can hang upside down on some gymnastics rings in a public park if they want to. As long as you pay a guy to help you do it. Yeah, that is really impressive. But the rings have been an eye-opening experience workout-wise because it's, I would say, much harder than weightlifting.

Because it's just a different process that I'm not used to. So there's been a learning curve. So it's kind of like when you're on a dip machine or dip bar, but the bar is constantly moving around and swaying. And you have to not only hold yourself up, which is difficult, but also keep yourself from just flailing around and slipping up. Yes, which requires... It's fucking badass. It's fucking cool, bro. The rings, they change height depending on the exercise. So, you know, we could be doing tricep work. We could be doing, you know, chest work. But I am sore in very odd places, which is my favorite feeling. After Oxycontin, of course, the second best feeling is being sore in weird parts of your body that you didn't know, you know, you could achieve that. In your non-vanity muscles. Yes, yes, weird parts of my shoulder, parts of my back. Yeah, actually, when I was doing a little cleanup, post-remodel cleanup, I found my bag of Weed Sport Bath Soak Epsom salts. And I was feeling sore AF as well from blasting off yesterday. Bay has another shoot in Malibu today, and Daddy's going to have a little alone time, so I might put a little NTS on and get my little Silky on. damn tj gonna be hanging out i mean what what can even fit in the bathtub just like your upper body you gotta let the legs hang out yeah it ain't gonna be much um it's gonna you know i think most of the body will be submerged except for my knees protruding out of the water and then you know my i guess anything above my nipple perhaps that's not too bad so you know i love i love a soak for you bro right yeah i think it's cool i mean

I think that also you having some alone time, lighting a Byredo, listening to some fucking lame music that you like is a perfect way for you to decompress. I have to ask if I have permission to light the Byredo, but we'll see. Fingers crossed. I actually feel pretty confident about it. Okay. Well, I feel confident too. If you're confident, I'm confident. I imagine a scenario where the parents go out of town and the kids dip into the liquor cabinet and then refill the kettle one bottle with some water. I might be doing the same move with the... Fill up the Byredo with the Yankee Candle oatmeal cookie. Son, this snaps bottle looks a little different than when we left. Barito's feeling a little light, TJ. Something you want to let me know about? I use this kitchen scale for a lot of things, Jason, and I'm finding some inaccuracies with your story. Good to see you, Jason. It smells great in here, actually. A reason why? Well, yeah. I mean, you're a known cook, so an oatmeal cookie smell, maybe it would trick someone. I'm going to have to produce a cookie. I have to talk about my meal that I had last night. It was pretty mind-blowing. Oh, okay. I remember you were talking about this. It was a handmade minzone. Jake and Adrian, our friends, have recreated the Parisian-Israeli restaurant Miznan. Jake Davis and Adrian Ho, for our listeners at home, you know. And, I mean, every bit of this shit was, I mean, the pita. I watched the pita come out of the oven and then directly into my fucking dome. Right, right. Bro, I can't believe I'm saying this. It might be better than the actual restaurant. Dead ass. That's high praise. And I guess it is kind of possible because I know that Jake works with only the most luxurious flours to make this pita bread.

I think a restaurant like that, they probably can't afford with their profit margins to be buying top, top, top dollar. Yes. It's small batch, Jason. We had all the fixings, but I had a potato pita and a cauliflower pita as well. What does that mean? That means that there's cauliflower inside the pita as a filling or there's a cauliflower base? cauliflower pizza crust it's not like that no no no no no it's like a the the famous miz non sandwich my my personal favorite is the cauliflower so it's just a it's a pizza with cauliflower and assorted they're like all right what is the most flavorless vegetable we can put in this bitch all right cauliflower let's get it popping i'm telling you and then jake also has some wild boy tomatoes and you know i'm not tomato head but i was i was fucking geeked off tomatoes bro there was a homemade there was a cherry tomatoes or were these were these beef steaks no these were these were oxblood beefsteak well i'm glad it was hitting it was hitting man it was a proper carbo load for you well I've just had so many great meals since I've been here because all my friends are good at stuff and I'm not good at anything except being a guest so you and you have been you've been have you been improving as As a guest with your showing up with the right natural wines and things like that? I have. Yes, Jason. If you're fishing for a compliment, I'll give it to you. Yes. When I'm going to a real head's house, even as a non-drinker, I can't show up empty-handed. That would be uncouth. Yeah, and you can't show up with no fucking Ghia bullshit. yeah you can't show up with a non-alcoholic aperitif spritzer now i do stop and pick up obviously a couple bottles of mountain valley sparkling for myself but if my guests are going to partake i must provide them with a high quality grape um from from melrose melrose uh you know the the domain on melrose where you sent me domain um

And everybody I've given a bottle to, from Emile to Scott, they were all geeks. Everyone's nutting off, aren't they? Sam Jane. I mean, all the guests were giving me great reviews. And I tell most of them that you helped me. That's fine. Honestly, I picked all of those wines out. I've never tried any of them. I was just using my spidey sense. That's what was cool about it. It felt bespoke because you also knew the receiver, which is not always the case. As usual, I get the treatment I deserve and I have my own sommelier. Wonderful to hear. This is also just further solidifying your eventual permanent move to Los Angeles. I don't know what you're talking about. I'm thriving right now in some ways, but it mostly comes down to just the amount of physical activity I'm able to do. Carolyn's friend, Max, he lives in New York. He works in... in data he's a data man and he just he just came to la one-way ticket just like don't figure it out i don't know how long i'm gonna be here but it ain't gonna be a short time well i mean that's i think that's where we're at in the world i think no one's the thing is no one's got anywhere to be uh but as americans there's not many places we can go so it does it does limit our um our our location, location options, you know? Um, but I do think we're going to see a lot of people like, you know, with nobody, if nobody has to go to an office for the next year, let's say, or at least until 2021, um, you know, it's like, if you have the means, you and a couple of your friends are definitely going to go get a house somewhere night, you know, with a beach or whatever, if you can, why would you not do that? You know, at the very least a Palm Springs getaway or something.

Exactly. A little quickie Palm Springs. Exactly. Just spread that virus on the low. Look, bro, chill. I thought the sun killed it. Let me live, dog. I thought the sun killed it. The sun does kill it. That's confirmed for sure. I mean, it's killing my tan right now. Bro, I'm looking bronze, baby. I'm looking like a damn statue. Are we filling out? Do we have any problem areas? Are we good money all over? Well, I'm having a little bit of a sock issue. On the court, the white Thorlows are leaving a slight tan line I see on my mid-calf. So your sock issue is you have a sock tan? Yes. That's a tough one. I mean, it's really hard to even that out, I've found. I think I'm fucked. You're never going to be no-show boys. That's just not going to happen. No-shows are truly something I couldn't be more against. I can't believe that anyone would wear them. I know. They had a big run back in the day. I think there's still some dorks out there that wear the pads with loafers and shit. Loafers have leather linings so you don't have to do that. I know, but some people... their their foot and shoe and sock story can really vary it's it's a spectrum of smells is what i'm saying some some people can just do it and some people whatever their their flora and fauna going inside of that body produces you know even if you have a high quality leather sole it's gonna be fucked up bro bro it's gonna be fucked up um well we have we have a guest today um a friend of mine uh alex frank who is a uh writer in new york and he's talked to all of our heroes on this podcast um on this all of our heroes on this podcast well he's just talked to all of our heroes your favorite musician la del rey yeah he's a he's a music writer he's he's only i think that's the other way around i'm definitely more of a mariah stan than you are i actually you know i'm gonna get into about la del rey because i feel like it's it's really

gone downhill but he also did it he's like i didn't write a story about how her body looks uh it's more about the music and then and then he also did a cover story with sienna miller for l at the end of last year which i obviously needed t on um but yeah legends only aretha franklin He talks to some of your little bullshit like Eve's tumor and fucking Arca and all that shit you're into. Arca is fire. Eve's, you know, we'll take it or leave it. But yeah, Arca, you can't come for him, her. I mean, I cannot because I'll get canceled, but it's unlistenable. You're unlistenable. That's also true. You can listen to How Long Gone wherever podcasts are available. You just took the wrong drugs, bro. All right, let's give Alex a call. Yes. All right. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Squarespace. Obviously, Jason, you and I spend a lot of time on the World Wide Web, sort of our peers, our listeners, our friends, our colleagues, maybe even your parents if they're freaky. And if you're doing anything in the world... writing, taking pictures. I do topless boxing. You need a website. Exactly. A website that works, that does what it's supposed to do, that allows you to be creative, but also business-minded. Jason, there's one place to go for that, Squarespace. Yeah, Chris, I'm over here. I'm modifying calculators and putting Claude inside of them so you could cheat at school. And I just want a place where I could have everything all in one place. I can have the SEO tools. So those future graduates can find me and, you know, I'm able to accept quote unquote donations for my services that might be gray area. You know what I mean? And then email campaigns. Hey, I got a new, you know, 2.3 version upgrade. Boom, boom, boom. Get the analytics going. Raise some money. Show your investor all of your cool analytics of what's going on. They're going to want to get in early. And we can use Blueprint AI to make your website look as professional as your competition, if not more. So head to squarespace.com slash howlong for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use offer code howlong to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain. Oh, this is huge for me personally. This episode of How Long Gone.

It was brought to you by TaskRabbit. Oh, baby, let me tell you something. This is not a joke. I use TaskRabbit a lot because I can't do anything. You need some art hung? TaskRabbit. You need something put together? A cabinet? Got to reach that cheese grater on the top shelf? TaskRabbit. Anything you need, TaskRabbit can take care of it for you. How it works, TaskRabbit connects you with skilled taskers in your area. They can help you move. They can assemble furniture, repairs, yard work, mounting, and more. You can search for a tasker based on cost, skill set, availability, and past client reviews so you know exactly who's showing up and can have confidence that they know what they're doing because taskers have assembled over 3.4 million pieces of furniture, completed 700,000 home repairs. handled 1.5 million moves, and the numbers are just going up, Jason. Yeah, throw a little money at the problem. It's not so expensive. And that job that you really don't want to do is something that another person out in the world is very good at doing and would gladly do it in exchange for a little bit of money. So when life happens, your to-do list grows. Get ahead of it now and get $15 off your first task at TaskRabbit.com or grab the TaskRabbit app using promo code how long taskers book up faster, especially for same day tasks. So book trusted home help today. That is $15 off your first task using promo code how long with the TaskRabbit app or at TaskRabbit.com. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by a new podcast from The Guardian stateside with Kai and Carter. This is covering a lot of our bases, Jason. It's trying to slow down. the news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's happening in the world and i know you particularly have quite a lot of questions a lot of questions but how often because we do this podcast three times a week and that's a sweet spot how many times do they do three times a week and i i have a feeling just based on the platform and these talking points that they're maybe going to be covering different stuff than we do that's just a guess the guardian is not some billionaire owned

They're not afraid to say what they want to say, brother. Yeah, Rupert ain't sniffing around in what journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman are up to over there at Stateside. But yeah, listen wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch it on YouTube. It's three times a week. And who couldn't use more news? Especially when it's not from here, let's say. Give it a listen. I've never done a three-way FaceTime. That's a lie and you know it. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's something that actually I don't think Jason and I have ever done before either until we started this podcast. It's really cool. That's debatable. I think you can do like crazy groups. You can have like 32 people in one FaceTime. At the beginning of the pandemic, I did a few Zoom situations, but I couldn't handle it, and I stopped. Then I refused to Zoom. People invited me to their Zoom birthday parties, and I just said, no, I'm not coming. They were like, well, literally, you have nothing else to do. I'd be like, yeah, but I'm not going on a Zoom with 47 people right now. Remember back in the old days when people would have fucking Zoom parties and Zoom happy hour drinking things? It seems like so long ago. No, bro. We're out in the streets. Thank God that shit died because it was stressful. Chris, do you live in LA now? No, I'm just in LA. Yes, he does. No, I'm just out here for a little siesta. No, but I came here July 1st and it has been excellent. But I mean, New York sounds pretty good to me from what I'm seeing. I mean, I... Yeah. It's a hellscape. It's the best of times, worst of times situation where like, obviously there's a ton of bummer stuff happening, but there's also like, I mean, I've been in New York almost 13 years now and I've never seen the city like this. It's like a totally new way to see the city. So yeah, there are things that are really cool. Although I read today that Cuomo is done with the outdoor drinking and he's making it with people again. So we're back to not drinking on the sidewalk.

Fucking Cuomo. I really don't like him. I didn't take you for a Cuomo sexual. I'm not a Cuomo sexual. I'm not a fan. It takes a certain kind of nerve to be bragging all the time when your state had it the worst. That's a very specific kind of braggart. It works for Trump. If it works for Trump, it could work for New York. That's true. It also works for Chris Black as well pretty well. I mean, I love to follow my leader, but I have to stop at a certain point. You know what I mean? Is California, like, scary right now? Hell no, bro. It's fucking convertibles, In-N-Out Burger, sunshine. Yeah, the only thing scary about California right now is, like, sometimes the waves are really big and it'll kind of toss you around in the ocean a little bit. But otherwise, it's all good. I'm a little worried about my beachfront Malibu property because the sand is like eroding a little. But other than that, it's been pretty good. That's something to clock. Your mask tan. You're going to have a mask tan. I actually, the mask outdoor shit, I thought that was like, I didn't, I thought they kind of said that wasn't necessary, but now it is. It's very confusing. But people don't, they're never outside in LA anyway. So I guess it's like, you're always in your car anyway. So you don't really need to worry about it. I see a lot of people wearing masks in their car, which is truly demented. That's really like the next level. I see it all the time. Jason, don't you see it too? I see it constantly. I think if you're a person alone in your car with the mask on, it makes my life and my job easier of knowing like, okay, I know everything I need to know about this person. It's almost sweet, I would say. It is. I mean, it's just kind of like, I don't know what's going on. I'm just going to do the best I can do. And I don't care if I look, I mean, you could spin it to a very sweet story or just like, this is annoying motherfucker story as well. I think sometimes it's people who just are so committed to wearing the mask. They forget, which is probably a good thing. I am unfortunately not that committed to wearing a mask, but I do wear it when told when, when I'm, when I am supposed to.

Oh, not just when you're told. You don't have to be yelled at on the street to a bear. Well, I like that because that gives me some excitement. I just read, actually, that Jax from Vanderpump Rules was in the airport in Dallas and people were telling him to wear a mask and he just ignored them and kept walking, which is so sick. I never watch Vanderpump Rules, but it does not surprise me. Wow, I'm surprised, actually, as a guy whose job it is to literally comment on culture that you're not looking at the highest. Well, you know what's really funny is I went to a screening of Andy Cohen because my friend was doing like a performance on the Andy Cohen show. Wow, big flex. Two of the characters from Vanderpump Rules were there. I think they were both from Vanderpump Rules. And everybody was freaking out about them. But it's like a really weird experience when you literally have no idea who those people are. But anyway, I did. like interact with Vanderpump rules. I met somebody on Vanderpump rules. I like, I like that you call them characters and not people. And that, that, that says a lot. And I think you're right for that. Yeah. Like I, I, yeah. Cause I, you know, what's really funny is like when you approach the show from someone who doesn't watch all of that stuff, like it really does seem fictional when you come at it from like a context of not like, I don't watch, I think the housewives are really cool. Like, I think they're funny. Like I, very cool. I don't watch it, and so I was just like, okay, I'm going to watch this show because I met this person. Her name is Stassi, and I was like, I'm going to watch the show. So I watched the show, and it was sweat. You can't just tell Chris that. You can't just casually drop Stassi. First of all, her name is Stassi. Put some respect on her fucking name. Second of all, she has been canceled, so you're in the clear. Why? Her and another cast member attempted to get a... black cast member arrested for like not really doing anything. But she has hired a serious crisis PR firm and she's pregnant. So she's trying to rehab her image as we speak. Whoa. That's crazy. Well, I met her at Vanderpump Rules or at Andy Cohen and people were very excited that this was before any scandal and people were very excited that she was a celebrity. Yes. Well, she's a celebrity in certain circles. Now she's a Karen. Exactly. She really is.

I what was your experience at Watch What Happens Live? Because somehow I've been passed over again and again to be the guest bartender. Oh, that's that's so my friend was the guest bartender. That's why I was there. And like it was that's sort of like my I would love to be the guest bartender on Andy Cohen. I don't know. I have like a weird I like him. I don't know why. Like I love him. Yeah. Like I know he's not like a perfect guy and there's something. off about him in some ways but like i i really i really like him and i just like find him really appealing and i watch that show i even watch the shows about the housewife like i watched like the his when he does when he has lisa vanderpump or whoever on the show even though i don't know what the hell they're talking about i gotta say alex that's pretty weird i gotta say but i like him and he you know what he can sometimes get celebrities like open Yes, he can get Mariah Carey to talk to him in a way that nobody really can. That you were unable to, perhaps? Yeah. And so I give him a lot of credit for that. He's the Marc Maron of Bravo. He is the Marc Maron of Bravo. But I have gone a step further, and I've actually read Andy Cohen's books. Whoa. And so if you thought you were the real fan, I just want to put it into perspective for you. his there's one that's like a diary and this is like years this is years ago at this point i i at the time didn't realize like how plugged in he is like in hollywood like he's on the yacht with barry diller and shit all summer like he's really on another level so then once i found that out i was extra in because i also want to be on the yacht with barry diller right what do you what do you think it is what is it about him that allows him to gain access into the upper echelons as just a uh you know basic cable tv show host he's very plugged in i mean he made all those shows like he created he basically made bravo which is owned by nbc like a conglomerate like a giant juggernaut of money making yeah he invented he's like the erin spelling of our time like he invented the soap opera of our time yeah he's also a huge grateful dead fan i interviewed him about his grateful dead obsession for this story that i did about grateful dead fans nobody's perfect him in

That's because he mobs out with my king, John Mayer. No, but he's been going since the 80s. Like, he's been going to Grateful Dead shows since he was, like, a teenager. I wish I understood the Grateful Dead, but it's a big challenge on this show. I went to see them on Halloween last year. Was it for research, or are you a deadhead, bro? I'm not a deadhead. I like them. I'm not, like, I don't know, like, a ton, a ton. My uncle was a deadhead, so I kind of, like, had them in my kind of purview. It was a great show. It was like 17 hours long. And like, I don't smoke weed. So it was just like funny to like, like everybody was offering me a joint. Like if I smoked weed, it would have been the best place in the world. So you did coke at a Grateful Dead show. That's pretty weird. No, never. I thought it would just be weed, but a lot of those baby boomers were like on other drugs too. Like it was really clear that the baby boomers were also on like psychedelics. Yeah. Maybe ketamine though. Fire. I couldn't tell, but it wasn't just weed for sure. I, I just, the popularity of the Grateful Dead in this time is very interesting to me because I, I just wanted like, I want to basically check everyone I see and be like, all right, bitch, when did you start listening to this shit? Like if you grew up listening to shit, all right, go crazy. If you started two years ago, I can't rock with you. Well, I actually think it's interesting that you say that because I think there's something about them that, like, it's like a dog whistle thing that people who are 20 don't. Like, I know a lot of people who've gotten into it when they're, like, 30 years old exactly. Like, I think it appeals to a certain kind of, like, 30 pushing 40 kind of guy. Don't talk to us like that, okay? Because it's not going to work on us. It's not. I asked Andy Cohen if there were like a lot of gay deadheads and he had no answer for me. I was just like, you're the first gay deadhead I've ever met. And he was like, oh, okay, cool. It would have been pretty cool if you checked Grindr at the show just to see. I should have done that. Just to see what's going down. That would have been a cool. Whenever we can go back to concerts, I will do that. But that's the thing. I have no interest in the music, but I would absolutely go to a show. Like if somebody invited me.

It was fun. It was beautiful. It was a moment. Was it in New York? Was it in Jones Beach or something? No. The problem was that it was at Madison Square Garden. MSG, baby. Come on. Well, the real experience is going somewhere that's scenic and beautiful and seeing them. You've got to hit Red Rocks. Right. So I didn't have that experience. And then the whole setup is there. At Madison Square Garden, they didn't have all the booths with all that stuff. Oh, yeah. Party in the parking lot. Yes, but it was still really, really – it was special, and I was captivated by it for sure. How hot did John Mayer look on stage? I mean, I was pretty far, but he looked all right, I guess. Have you – I think John Mayer's career is also one of the wildest things that we've ever experienced as people. My question is, is the music something that is experienced? Is he a reality celebrity at this point? Or do people actually buy that music and listen to that music? No, no, no. The music slaps at certain stages. Right. I am a fan, truly, of when he goes a little more country. It's pretty good. Yeah, I could see that. That record that he did, it's called Born and Raised. That record's very good. That's kind of his peak. But I just think from a 360-degree celebrity, we don't have that many that are able to do everything that he does. I think it's a pretty rare thing. Right. He's like – What does he do? He sings and plays guitar and fucks chicks. I can name a lot of people who can do that. But I'm saying he's – first of all, the caliber of woman is crazy. I mean this guy has run through them all. It's insane. But then he also – The Grateful Dead thing is actually crazy. The amount of music he had to learn to beat, that's insane. And he plays Jerry Garcia's guitar for some of the shows. He's really in it, and he's committed his life to it. They tore a fucking lot. I know. It's crazy. It's crazy. It's a real commitment. He made a real—you're right. To learn—they're like four-hour shows. I know. That's what I'm saying. Yeah, he really has committed. The commitment level to do that, still have your own output.

To me, he's the Pete Davidson of music. Exactly, exactly. He's the Pete Davidson of music. Maybe he's like a really secretly like just the super hardest worker ever. And he like manifested all this by like working his ass off. I don't know. I think he must be. I think guys like that are genuinely just like blessed. Like it's very easy for them to like learn the music and do that side of things. But his looks don't hurt, you know, if I'm being honest. That head of hair is immaculate. I would kill for that hair. You have great hair. I was about to comment. I know you let it grow out. Well, this is an experiment. We'll see. I don't know if I'm going to have John Mayer locks. Oh, you're not. Unless you're going to Sally Hershberger, sweetie, you're not going to get there. God damn it. Did you give yourself a haircut in quarantine? I've been giving myself many haircuts. kind of like the haircuts i've been giving myself to be honest with you like i didn't do a terrible job the thing about giving yourself a haircut though is not necessarily how it looks that day it's like when you don't do it evenly it grows in so crazy like the problem was like three weeks later like i'd have patches here and like here and it was just like so i finally did get a professional haircut and it was just like i'm gonna bite the bullet and do this how good how good did it feel It felt really good, but it's such a weird, I mean, it was such an awkward experience that it's like the pleasure of getting your haircut is completely removed from the equation. And so also my barber went out of business, so I had to go to a different person. But like, it's just like an awkward experience with the face shield and there's dead quiet and there's just two people in there. And so it doesn't really, you know, I used to like love getting my haircut and you just sit in the chair and chill the fuck out and whatever. And now it's like. it's like going into like the biodome or something. Yes. There aren't very many places left where we can have the locker room talk that we, that we so need from the barbershop. See, I shut the fuck up in the barbershop chair. I want to not talk. Like my whole life is so much talking that I'm like, when I'm in that chair, I just kind of, I'm quiet. I became pretty good friends with my barber and her and I, yeah, I mean,

i really like her and she's had a really interesting life kind of and i i just i don't know i like her a lot and we did she make house calls she would she told me she would for me which was like very gratifying of course because i love special treatment um but i haven't been in new york since march so i have it she's back at work though i know i mean the barbershop is open you know i think it's just like a like you said it's like weird and there's capacity issues and all that stuff so maybe i should go to her though Hey, yes, I would love to. I'll send you her stuff. She works at fellow barber. Her name is Andrea. Please do. Yeah, she's got some cool stories about like 90s LA, which is my probably top, top time period. Like Viper Room LA kind of thing? Yeah, like she lived here and was like a stylist in that era. And like before she, she's had like a few lives. She was like a model. She's had a few lives. So it's a very interesting story. But I miss it. I mean, I shaved my head, and so did Jason. So we are in the same boat. We gave ourselves haircuts for a while. I'm sticking with it. I really, like, I've decided to commit. I'm not going to shave. Like, I'm going to do the full thing, but we'll see. You traveled a bit, right? You haven't been in New York the whole time. Mostly I've been here the whole time. I was in Pittsburgh for, like, two weeks. Yeah, I can't believe you're from Pittsburgh. I don't think I know anyone from Pittsburgh. You don't know anyone from Pittsburgh? I mean, Andy Warhol, I guess. Yeah, Andy Warhol is from Pittsburgh. Yeah, I'm from Pittsburgh. Yeah, born and raised. Actually, that's not true. Lauren Sherman, who you might know from Business of Fashion, is from Pittsburgh. I don't know her. Yeah, I believe she is from Pittsburgh. Another Pittsburgh writer. What's the vibe in Pittsburgh? It seems pretty weird. Yeah, it's weird. I mean, I didn't like it growing up, but I've come to... like, understand its appeal now. Like, my parents met when they were five. They went to elementary school together. I went to the same high school as them. It's just, like, a very old-fashioned place with serious roots and serious, like, yeah, just, like, that sense of rootedness, which only made sense to me and, like, only started to be kind of appealing to me was when I left Pittsburgh and I met a lot of kids who were, like, who had grown up in places that they had no attachment to. They were just, like,

I grew up in suburbs that they weren't really connected to in a lasting way. They were just a place that their parents had moved or something like that. I started to understand why Pittsburgh is special, but it doesn't mean I really want to live there. You know what I mean? Sure, of course. I understand that. I think that's an interesting way to put it. I've never been there, which is kind of strange. I feel like I've been to a lot of cities like that, but I've never been. I've never had like a reason to go there. But, you know, they did open an Ace Hotel. So now I must, I mean. Very close to my house, actually. They're calling me. My parents live... It's not gentrifying in the same way that New York would, but it kind of is. My parents just happen to live on the edge of that neighborhood. Isn't there a tech thing happening? Google has an office. They probably have some bomb-ass gastropubs there. They are really into that kind of stuff. Also, we have our own very cheap... like Coors Light beer called Iron City Light and you have to say it with a Pittsburgh accent. So you say Iron City and it's like the most, it's like, it was like 25 cents a can when I was growing up. Like, and you could get it like everywhere and it was like 25. It's called Iron City Light and it's like only available in Pittsburgh. So that's like your version of an old style or a Yingling or something else? Yeah, it's like water with like, it's like water with like a little bit of beer in it basically. Well, for 25 cents, what can you really expect? Hey, I've had Coors Light. I actually, you know, a friend of mine, Adam Ray, who actually listed the show, I think he told me that one of the best like electronic music parties in the world is in Pittsburgh. Really? Yeah. Like it might be like a gay rave. There are like when I don't know what it's like anymore because I really don't spend that much time there. But when I was younger, it was a very fun, weird. place like there wasn't a lot going on but it was basically like there were parts of it that were just like an abandoned city so there was like a lot of weird shit happening in warehouses and like you could go like there was like weird punk shit happening everywhere like it really had that because it was just such a cheap place without like like it like things were just like available and open and closed down

Like there was all these old factories, there's all these old warehouses that no longer operate. And so there is like a weird scene there, but I've never heard of it as being like sort of heralded by anybody outside of Pittsburgh. This sounded very underground to me, but like also very big in whatever the community was. As a person who likes guitars, it was a little lost on me. But did you, what were you into growing up? Were you into punk and shit or were you into like whatever La Del Rey was at that time? Like a mixture of both. I was like a weird mixture of both. You know what I mean? I loved Bikini Kill and stuff like that, but I was really also into Britney Spears. I was just a very weird mix of things, and I didn't really... That's actually a perfect mix, not a weird mix. Yeah, I would say that's ideal, really. It took me a long time to figure out how those two things could coexist in my life in a holistic way. They do, and, like, I love both sides of that thing. But I, like, loved Britney Spears when I was in STEM. Like, loved Britney Spears. So what's going on with all this Britney Spears drama? Because I don't follow because it was on Diet Prada and they're my nemesis, so I'm a little confused. Are you a Britney truther? Do you believe that she is being controlled by her handlers? I don't think it's even a question. No. She has been under this conservatorship since either 2007 or 2008. It's really weird because she came to be famous when she was 17, and now she has basically the legal rights of a 17-year-old. So she's just like 17 forever because her dad basically – I don't think she can vote without her dad's permission. I mean like the conservatorship has insane – like those things have insane – rules like he's in charge i think of her probably of i mean i don't want to get sued so i don't know how much i can say but i i think he's in charge of her finances like i think he can he deals with like the custody issues relating to her and kevin like and it's her it's her dad not even her mom like her mom is apparently now trying to petition to get some control because the dad's like a known shithead right i mean it's really hard to say yeah i mean he might he may or may not have saved her life with this situation yeah exactly exactly

But it's like, but like, you know, she has talked openly about it being like a prison. Like she, like she, there was that one documentary that came out in I think 2008 or 2009 where she sort of let the guard down. She has never let the guard down since. And she's crying in this documentary. It was on MTV. And she's just talking about how she's basically in prison. And like, there's no joy in her life. There's no, there's just like nothing. And I don't know that that's still true, but like. she seems to have a good time on instagram and like i really want her to have fun but i but i do think there's a way in which like she yeah like i she's she's a little stuck she seems to have like a michael jackson jackson family kind of vibe going on yeah i mean there's a lot of money like we're talking about like a lot of money correct a lot of people employed like the thing is like These people become like she's a corporation. And so like there's all these people on the payroll. Yeah, it's like keeping a business afloat. You know what I mean? Maybe you have to change the CEO, but like it needs to keep going. Like the stock has to keep going, you know? And but it's just a bummer because I don't like I saw her in Vegas and I was I went to one of the early shows in Vegas. And like everybody was talking about that show as if it was like this great liberation moment for her because she was back on stage and she was like woman power and all this kind of stuff. But it just seemed really sad to me. And I just like kept thinking, like, does she want to be on that stage? Like she looked really like she she never spoke to the audience. There was no video screen. So you couldn't even see her face close up. Like it was literally like it was. Yeah, it was like as. as bummer a show as I could imagine a Britney Spears show could be. So I was kind of like, this is not, this does not feel like a liberation moment to me. See, the vibe on Instagram to me is, is like a little bit like, like porn hub at home is kind of the aesthetic. Like the, it's, it's all. Expand on that please, Chris. It just seems.

Oh, you mean like her Instagrams and stuff? Yeah, it just seems so, something about it seems so weird, but also like authentic to her maybe. Like it actually feels like she's doing it, which makes it more weird. But then there's the boyfriend, which is that a prop or is that real? I can't decide. The thing with Britney is, like, this is, like, she is always, like, a symbol of the uncanny. Like, you never know what's real and fake with her. Like, even with her voice, like, has been altered through a computer to a point where, like, I don't even, like, who knows what her voice even is. It, like, is a computer. Her speaking voice or her singing voice or both? Her singing voice. Okay. She is, like... She like it's hard. It's always been hard to know, like, what's real and what's fake with her. That's like the vibe of her. Like she has some like cyborg qualities to her. Like some of those videos, she looks like a robot, like malfunctioning or something like that. But like she's, you know, I mean, I just love her so much. And I think she's like a. like a deeply emotional person who I connect to on many levels. And like, I just want her to be happy. I mean, she is truly an icon. And I think that all of us are probably like a similar age. So we like really grew up during the heyday of that, where she was like the most famous person in the world. Like beyond, like she is a, she is in the pantheon, you know what I mean? And I think like, I also like think she had a lot of creative influence on like the world that we live in now. I mean, for good and for bad in some ways, but. I hear her presence like in so much music range. Yeah. Like I just hear her presence and music ranging from like Rihanna and Selena Gomez to like Arca and like, you know, like her influence I think has been like really big. And I, and I think like she doesn't really get a ton of credit for that because nobody believes she actually did any of it. So I think, I think she has kind of changed things a lot. Damn, I've never thought about that. I think of her more as like, I don't think about the music that much anymore. I think I just think about the celebrity of it all. I think most people probably do at this point, but I'm still, you know me, I'm still holding on to her music. What's your favorite Britney song before we move on? It's a really hard thing to answer. Okay, maybe your favorite ballad and then your favorite dance song. Okay, my favorite ballad is Every Time, which is the only song she's ever written.

And like, I think it's the only song that's been on one of her albums. And it's the song that she wrote after Justin Timberlake released Cry Me a River. And she was really upset. And the opening lyrics, like it's a beautiful song. And the opening lyrics, the opening two lyrics of the song are the words, notice me. And I just think that's like the most beautiful, like it just sums her up in so many ways. And it's like, like she could have been like an incredible songwriter. I think if she had done it more, if people had let her do it more, because that song is. beautifully beautifully written and my favorite like high like fat song oh i don't know i love the whole block out album which i think of as like a song because i only listen to it from beginning to end damn this guy said damn that's the best compliment i think of the album as one song because i just rinse it from front to back it's amazing and she made it amidst her breakdown and it's this really weird mix of things because she was at the height of her power like she could she could do anything she wanted in the studio because she had been making so much money for people for sure she had free reign in the studio and at the same time she was sort of like losing it a little bit so you combine those two things and like you just have this like combustion that's both like super weird and like incredibly produced as long as nobody dies you have magic coming out of that studio yeah yeah like maybe i'll maybe i'll put on blackout this weekend and just see where i land there are no guitars alex i um we've talked about it before on the show but i have to mention i was i'm in the video for every time you are in the video oh god jason i forgot i am in that video the video was steven dorf in vegas uh that's right Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. And what context are you in that video? I play a ravenous paparazzi. When she's walking through the hallway? That's right. That's right. I'm the very tall one. I'm wearing a leather trench coat. I have kind of long hair and they gave me makeup to look kind of like dark and menacing. And then...

You're now the most famous person I've ever met. But it's weird because I remember being on that video at the time. I was like, all right, here's another Britney Spears song. And I'm in the video and whatever. And then you're right about it really kind of becoming this beautiful song that has had a lot of legs. And then it was featured in that, what movie was that in a few years ago? Spring Breakers. Yeah, Spring Breakers where they had that scene. And when you sit down and listen to it, you're like, fuck, this is a truly beautiful song. And in the original video, she commits suicide in the video, but they changed it before they released it because MTV gave them pushback. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, it's a dark, like, it's a really, like, that song, and it's, again, it's like, I think it's the only one she's ever written that's been on one of her studio albums. And so it's, like, truly the only kind of, like, assured window that we have into her, like, soul. Psyche, yes, yeah. Damn, Jason, I didn't realize that was the video you were in. This is one of Jason's famous stories, so I've heard it, of course, a million times. You should be telling that to everybody. I would be using that story left and right. You can get into clubs with that story. Yeah, I'm going to go to Bergheim and be like, have you seen Everest? I'm going to pull up YouTube. Just give me one second, sir. I didn't realize that was the song. You guys are meant to be. Oh, man, I can't wait to watch it. A connection to it. Kismet. I had a few questions about my Britney Spears, Sienna Miller, that you famously profiled for the cover where she actually looked very good. That was a great cover. What do you mean, actually? It's hard to not make her look good. I agree, but sometimes magazines, at least for me, as a person who appreciates natural beauty, especially a laid-back natural blonde. I can't have the makeup and the hair. You know, I just, I think that's unnecessary. Yeah. Well, she's the most naturally glowing person I've ever met in my life. So they did the right thing by just letting her be her. What was the vibe, bro? Give me the whole tea. What'd she smell like? What's the vibe? The vibe was like super wonderful. And like, I have like very kind of strict ideas about like, I am not there to be friends with the person. And like, it's very important for me to remember that because famous people are very,

um charming and alluring that's why they are where they are and so they can make you they can exactly they can make you feel like like like you're friends and you're not with her it was like really really special and she gave she gave me her email address and also said what she wants that she wanted to set me up with a guy and i was so you so you hit sienna miller at gmail.com with a few pics and then Like, where did it go? It gets kind of worse, Chris. You're going to be kind of upset, I think. She told me about the guy, and I said no. Damn. Like, my friends, when I told my friends that I said, like, what the fuck? Yeah, they were like, what? If Sienna Miller, like, wants to say no. You just do it, bro. You just do it. And I didn't go. That is a dick that you suck as an investment into your future. Exactly. Yes, yeah, I know, I know. The heart wants what the heart wants. It wasn't meant to be. So anyway, I haven't spoken to her since, but she sent me some really nice emails. Where did you do the interview? What was it? At a hotel. What's that? It's like such a you place. Is it Cafe Clooney or something? Oh, very chic. Yes, we love it. In the West Village? Yeah, we love that. Yeah, that's so you. That's a nice early breakfast place, you know what I mean? When you don't want to get spotted. Yeah, and she wasn't recognized by the hostess, which I thought was really funny. And also, she's a really good actor. When they first asked me to do that, I was sort of unsure because I was just like, Sienna Miller. I had this idea of her as something that she kind of isn't. And I watched this movie that she's in called American Woman, which was the movie that she was promoting for the magazine cover. And it's... A very good movie, but more important than being a good movie, she is absolutely wonderful in it. And if she had had a different reputation, she would have been thought of for Oscars for this role. It was that good. And that really caught me. I was like, oh, this woman has a story. She's underrated, I would say. I think her chops are underrated as well.

I agree. I think that she, I mean, I think in that, I think a couple of years ago she was in like small roles, but she was in like three Oscar nominated movies in one year, which is impressive. The Miller effect. She just needs to keep at it. And I think like, I think that she just wants to be like a working actress. That's the sense that I got from her, which is like a really nice thing to be like, it's. she wants to live in the West village and raise her kid and like be a working actress, have work, but like not maybe, I mean, I'm sure she would love to win an Oscar and be famous, more famous and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But it seems like she's like just kind of trying to build a career and like a really kind of relatable, you know? I mean, she also lived through being like exceptionally famous. You know what I mean? Like. Yes, she was. Her first movie was Archie and she had already been tabloided with Jude Law before the movie even came out. So she didn't even have a chance to like introduce herself in a movie. And she like, I mean, the shit that she put up with, I mean, Rupert Murdoch tapped her fucking phone and was listening in on her fucking phone. Murdoch, you know, as much as I love the Daily Mail, Murdoch is the devil. Yo, can you imagine? That's insane. I mean, that's what I mean. The whole Primrose Hill, that era of London, it's crazy how big it was. You know what I asked her? I was like, did you ever meet Amy? Because I associate her with Amy Winehouse in my mind because of London and all that. The craziness of that 2006, 2000 era. And she never got to meet Amy Winehouse. But I was like, yeah. You know, Amy, I'm also, funny you bring her up, I'm also an Amy Winehouse stan. That's top, like, Amy Winehouse top five of all time. Agreed, 100%. Top five is not number five. Number five for Chris is probably Lily Allen, though. I love Lily, too. I love Lily. I think that Amy, I watch Amy Winehouse and Mark Ronson do that song live.

Valerie. At least once a month. At least once a month. At the Brits, I think, is the award show where they played it. That's your version of Stevie Nicks warming up backstage video? I also watched that. That video might be the best video on YouTube. The best video on YouTube. An Amy Winehouse story that's good that I have is I saw her handwritten lyrics to that song. that has the lyric kept his dick wet, and she wrote it in little girl handwriting. It's so sweet to see it on a piece of paper. Is this Megan Thee Stallion? I saw Megan Thee Stallion's written verse. Also, can you, as a journalist on the front lines of music, can you explain this fucking Megan Thee Stallion, Tory Lanez thing? Because I don't understand, and they're being very coy about it. No, I actually, like, I really haven't been following him. I'm sorry. Apparently, Megan Thee Stallion got shot in the foot, and Tory Lanez got arrested for having a gun, but, like, they're not talking about it. And Kylie Jenner was there? Well, if it was Nobu and Malibu or The Nice Guy, it's very possible. Oh, man. Megan's been through so much, and she's, like, such a joy in the world, and, like, I just... It makes me really upset. Anyone that would shoot her is just like... Anyone that would shoot anybody, but don't shoot Megan. I guess shotting the foot feels accidental. I think Tory Lanez's little ass let it blast by accident and escalate and clipped her left foot. Yeah, that's the vibe. Alex, Tory Lanez is 5'2". That's fucked up. He's 5'2"? Yeah, because they showed... Yeah, they showed... This is a tall man's podcast. I know you're not, you know, I don't think you're grazing six feet, but we're going to let you in. That was like serious shade. No, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. Because we joke about it a lot, but Tory Lanez is actually five foot two. That's the point of this conversation. You know what? That makes me feel so impressed with him because to get where he is in the world that he's in at 5'2", like, takes something, you know? To be a bad rapper and bald and 5'2 and be famous is fucked up. That's crazy. You're absolutely right. He made a deal with the devil type of scenario. I'm impressed. He battled with Drake, my king, and lived to tell. I mean, that's pretty crazy.

You know what I mean? I guess they're both from Toronto, so maybe they knew it would eventually be squashed. I'll drink beefs are eventually squashed. For the betterment of the city as a whole. Yes, exactly. The mayor. The two mayors. Shared mayors. Have you been working during the pandemic? Have you been writing a lot, or have you found it difficult? It's really difficult. And the thing about, like, I'm incredibly disciplined and prolific with writing. Like, it's not something that, like, I'm someone who wakes up every day, usually, and, like, is committed to it and can do it and can produce, even if it's not the full thing. Like, I really pride myself on that. And I take a lot, like, I really care about that. And it centers me and gives me so much. And I have been, like, unable to, not even just to write, to even, like, think about. like what I would write, like I'm so muddled and confused. And like, I, I can't, I just can't be productive. So I'm doing like other work. Like I do some ad work and I kind of ad writing kind of thing to pay the bills because I have no choice but to do that. But in terms of, in terms of like creative stuff, no, like I don't even really, it's a weird thing because a couple editors have hit me up like, Oh, send pitches or like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And like, normally I'm like psyched. Like I want to do that. You know, like this seems like a good idea. And I don't even. want to send pitches like i'm just like i don't know what it is like i hope that i that i i hope that do you feel like the the subject matter that you were writing about feels less important right now given what's going on in the world 150 it's really crazy that you say that because that's i think that kind of hits the nail on the head in like a subconscious way. Like, I don't think that's like what I'm consciously thinking of. I'm not like, Oh man, like the whole world has changed. I can no longer write about this. I just think I like genuinely don't care as much. And like, I, I don't, yeah. Like everything, everything feels a lot more trivial nowadays. Yeah. And like, I don't think that's entirely fair, I guess, because it's like, you know, it was trivial before and I still did it. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, I don't know. It's definitely like there's a blockage, and I've never had a blockage. And so it's very troubling to me. But also, I just don't know if media is going to be on the other side of this. And so part of me is just like, will this exist? Will this job exist that I've invested so much of my life in? What's our fallback career? Can you tell me? Do you have a job? Do you have any interest in food blogging? Britney Spears backup person? I was going to ask if Britney Spears historian. I'm sure that would be a competitive historian. There's a museum, so don't even joke because I might apply to be the curator of the Britney Spears Museum in Kentwood, Louisiana. I knew it was in Louisiana. That's so depressing. Well, are you keeping up with new music, though, even though you're not writing about it? Here and there, I... When the pandemic first started happening, I found myself not listening to any music, partly because so much music I listen to is on my headphones when I'm on the subway or when I'm walking around, and I wasn't really doing any of that. But partly, I don't know. Normally, I have music on all day, every day, and I just really wasn't engaging with it. But I have been slowly and surely getting back into it, and I love that Haim album, and I saw you tweeting about it. I never liked them. Same. Never cared. Never cared. Listen to it a lot. I really like it. I love it. And I think it's like really clever and really like thought through in a very smart way. The way that they use references is like in a way that I hadn't heard before where they like want you to, they really, they're like in on the joke of the references and like. I just think it's brilliant. And I think their references are correct. Like the UB40 song that like UB40 song slaps. It's good, you know? And like, you know, sometimes I'm like, oh, I wish there was another song that sounded exactly like that UB40 song. Do you think, did they bring in, like, did something different happen? I didn't even look into it. Is there like new producers or just the god Rostam? Rostam and Ariel Reichstad, I think, worked on it too. I think Ariel works on everything because he's dating one of them.

Well, they're both geniuses. I think Rossum is like low-key a production genius. Who did we talk to about him on the podcast with, Jason? I don't remember. Probably Hamilton from Hamilton Lifehouser. They did that record together. I think that Danielle, who I didn't even know their names before. this album came out and now I can point them out and know which one is which I think. And Danielle, I think it's like, I mean, she seems to be kind of the leader. She's the singer, but I think she seems like the creative engine in a lot of ways too. And I think she's a really good songwriter. Like the, the songwriting is really. It's just really urgent. It hits you in a way where you're like, I've had that exact thing happen to me. I know that exact feeling that she's having. I think she's a really good songwriter. It's cool to see a band that both of you guys didn't really check for or care about and then keep at it and slowly get there. It's great. i had been really unfair about them i thought of them as something like you know bourgeois in a way or like you know like that's funny i thought it was just kind of hokey yeah i don't know what i thought it was and i think i wasn't super fair i think i wasn't super fair to them i had some preconceived notions and that weren't maybe correct and like I'm super impressed with this album, and I think it might be up there with my album of the year situation. So you've been able to stop listening to the Kid Cudi Eminem single long enough to really get into the Heim record. Love to hear that. Just about. Love to hear that. That's actual growth. Speaking of that, Alex, what bad music do you listen to? What do you mean by bad? Just music that you know is not good, but you still, for some reason, listen to it. I feel like that's a fair chunk of the music I listen to. I'm trying to think of something in particular that's not good. What about you, Chris? I think a lot of people consider all the music I like to not be good, but The Killers is excellent. I'm talking about music that you personally think is bad, but still listen to it. Like, damn, I just can't quit you.

This isn't bad music at all, and so I want to preface this by saying it's not bad, but I think people don't know how good it is. I listen to a lot of Patti LaBelle, and I think people don't really, like... Chef Patti? Yeah, I love Patti LaBelle, and I listen to her albums a lot. I've never explored LaBelle's catalog. Jason, I'm sure you haven't either. She's great. Thanks. Who else? Who else? I mean... There's so many. I don't even know where to begin, actually. It was too good of a question. Jason fancies himself to be very cool, and he listens to shit that I don't know what it is. You know what I mean? Whereas I'm more into some radio smashes. Right. Me too. Me too. I'm kind of become really boring and mostly conventional music. Yeah, I'm not super proud of that, but it's kind of... become the story of i think it'll it'll happen to you as you get older you yeah you'll reach for less arca and more lady lady a perhaps what if arca changed her name to lady a something that would be sick some of that stuff too for me is like i'm not part of like when i was in my 20s I was part of like a community where like that, where like all kinds of weird music made sense. And I heard like, just like being out and around, you know what I mean? And I'm just like not in that world anymore. So it doesn't have like that gravity in the same sense. You have to actually work hard at it and not have it just be a part of your life. I mean, I listened to a lot of Mariah Carey, like, and like, like cheesy Mariah Carey stuff. Like she's my go-to like all the time. Would you consider We Belong Together to be her greatest work? No, I do really love it. Breakdown is my favorite Mariah Carey song, the Mariah Carey song with Bone Thugs and Harmony. But I also love Always Be My Bait. I love many songs. I'm a big Mariah stan, personally. Jason famously would inject Mariah Carey into his DJ sets over the years, and the crowd would go absolutely bonkers. She's wonderful. Interviewing her was one of the highlights of my... What was that like? Was it IRL?

Yeah, at Electric Lady Studios. Why the fuck was she at Electric Lady Studios? She recorded some of her last album there, and her last album is very, very, very good. Interesting. Yeah, it's really good all the way through, actually. It was wonderful. I was, like, she came down, like, so I was sitting in the basement of Electric Lady. Like, I've done a lot of interviews there, so I know the place fairly well. And, like, I was sitting in the basement, and there was, like, a long hallway. And all of a sudden I heard the click clack of like many boots. And I was like, oh God, this is right. It's happening. With like 15 people and sunglasses on. And I was like, oh, this is going to suck. Like this is going to fucking suck. And I'm not going to get the story because she's going to, it's just going to be some fake Hollywood bullshit. And then I'm not even going to be able to run the interview because I was trying to get like a real interview with her about songwriting and about all that kind of stuff. And then she pulled off with me in a bottle of wine and we ate pizza. And like, it was, we talked for like two and a half hours and it was like, it was wonderful. She was so like, she was so different than what I expected. That's amazing. I didn't think people like that ever let the guard down to be honest. I like. The thing is, is like, I don't think she gets to talk about her songwriting that much. And I think she's so used to interviewers being like, have you lost weight? Like, who are you dating? And like, like I was doing it for Pitchfork. So I especially wasn't asking those questions. And like, it was just I think she was like happy that she's she's she's written. 18 out of 19 of her number one singles and what yeah she does all her own vocal production and she's like kind of produced a lot of her songs in some ways too like she so she's she's she's really a i think she's very creative person who hasn't had a ton of opportunities to talk about that that's interesting i actually did not know most of that that's cool think about right like it's it's nearly impossible to have it's the most number one singles i think in history and

she wrote 18 of them. Like, you must know something about something. You know what I mean? That's fucking wild. It's wild. And the only thing people want to ask her about is what's up with Nick Cannon. Yeah, like, I was reading these, like, for research, I was looking at old interviews and it's, like, crazy what the environment was like in the 90s. It was just basically, like, her weight was talked about a ton. Like, just really terrible shit. And I mean... Like, I get it. That's what celebrity is. Like, I'm not super purist about that stuff. Like, that's part of what being a celebrity is. And, like, the reward is hundreds of millions of dollars. And so it's, like, that's part of, like, what goes on. But it was weird to read those features and be, like, this person was not evaluated at all as an artist or even thought of as an artist. And she was writing the songs that, like, basically sustained the industry for, like, that entire decade because she sold so many records. Yeah, she's an impressive figure, I would say. Damn. And working with my dog, The Dream. Yeah, that song is amazing. It's an underrated Mariah song. The one she has with The Dream. Is that on the record, the new one? No, I think it was on his record, right? Oh, I see. Yeah, but I think he has co-produced or he's written a lot of stuff with her over the years. Yeah, he's amazing. I think a lot of his financial success is based off of Mariah specifically. Jason is a big dream head. Are you? No, he's got honey in his voice. What do you want me to tell you? He's very special. I like him too, but I would never listen to it. Chris isn't a sexy enough guy to really be able to appreciate that kind of music. I love that song, Bed. I love that song, Bed. Put you to bed. Yes. That's actually true. I don't think I am sexy. Where do you stand on Team Breezy, my friend? And be honest. Are you able to separate the art from the artist? I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I really... I don't know. We're getting close. Let me just say it this way. I remember when he put out that song, Loyal, and I, like...

I was that song. I was just like, you heard it everywhere. And I was into it on just like a visceral level. Cause you'd like hear it everywhere. And I couldn't help, but like tap my foot. We talking about these hoes ain't loyal. Yeah. And I was like, what does Chris Brown know about loyalty? Like, why do you have to take it there, Alex? God, you're such a thinker. I'm just, I'm just saying like, it was quite like, he is, he is. Look, Chris Brown was clearly a victim of homie hopping, and he is suffering from these hoes not being loyal. He's quite a figure. I feel like he's just slinked away into the darkness. I feel like he's not around. yeah he hasn't been i mean he was like low-key like one of the most popular entertainers in huge yeah yeah for like a really long time without really mainstream press giving him any love in a lot of ways or like legacy media giving him any love but i think yeah he finally kind of has i mean i think he's got a lot of issues you know what i mean i think like he yeah methamphetamines is one of them I think he's switched fully into being a graffiti artist, which is a good look for him, I think. His main issue is being too good of a dancer to where it affects his life. He's an incredible dancer. I've never seen anything like the way that he dances. Thank you. Speaking of Kanye West was running for president and then not running for president, do you think there are any rappers that would actually make a good president or a decent one? If you had to pick one rapper. I had the weird feeling, who would make a decent one? Waka Flocka for me, but go ahead. I say his anarchy, but yeah, go ahead. Cardi B would be better than Trump and probably better than Biden, I think. Cardi B. I could see that. I could see that. I could see it. No, I think America could give up. Her delivery and her speaking voice might not. connect with the majority of Americans, but I think that her core values and honesty and beliefs would win them over.

Yeah, I think, you know, the New York accent now, too, has, like, such, like, think about all these figures, Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump, who, like, represent authenticity to their respective bases. That accent and that way of speaking, that very New York way of speaking, that straightforward, like, it conveys incredible authenticity. And, like, that's how you feel with her. When she speaks, you're like, oh, this person is, like, telling me what they actually think about the situation versus most politicians who you can literally see the five-second gap between, like. what they actually believe and what they realize they should say. And I like, I, you know, I don't think she's ever going to run for office. That doesn't seem like something that she would want to do, but I think she could, I don't know. I mean, who knows? I think Carney's a good pick. I like that. I'm not a chance to rapper fan by any means, but I realized like he's the kind of guy that like seems like he's positioning himself or something like that. I will, that, that is, that's when I'll finally move to Canada. If chance to rapper becomes president. I am the Trump. We can handle. He's the enemy. My friend Michael said we would call him Chance the President. Like, that would be his fucking name. No chance. Chance the President is so funny. Like, his family is involved in Chicago. Yeah, his dad worked with Obama, I believe. Yeah, I think so. So, like, I could see that kind of... What about Travis Scott? You know, I think he could really... Fuck no. He can't even talk. Yeah, he doesn't seem particularly engaged with politics, although he came out to support Beto O'Rourke, which I thought was really... Did he really? Yeah, he did a weird meet and greet for Beto O'Rourke when he was running for Senate. Damn, I would have never remembered that person's name if we didn't have this nonvo. That was a big person and now fully removed. Minor threat fan Beto Rourke was on the cover of Vanity Fair and had a full documentary about him on HBO. That cover made me so upset. Vanity Fair, it's an unpopular opinion, but it is not readable at this point for me. I try. I haven't looked at the print edition. I was a lifelong subscriber. I subscribed to Vanity Fair in high school because that's how stupid I am.

That's my fantasy that I was living in. Putting Beto on the cover was not. It's such an embarrassing move, but it was a funny situation where a magazine cover, I think, influenced an election because I do think it was a really big mess for him in a lot of ways. I think it fed into a lot of things that people didn't like about him. I mean, it's like... in style putting dr falchi on the cover you know oh god that cover it's so bad like the whole thing is so bad like we're in the middle of this shit guys like this ain't the time this guy's done shit like what do we celebrate america's doing really badly and like i know that it's not necessarily just his fault but can we not like Like people are dying. Like it's worse here than it is anywhere in the world. And like we're putting the guy that's in charge of it on the cover of Insta. Like it's a weird – like we're weird people. Like the Cuomo thing was so weird too. I was like do you guys literally realize he's the governor of the state that has it? Like you're dying because he kind of didn't do a great job at this. At the same time, it's like Sports Illustrated putting the worst ranked team on the cover of the magazine. Weird, but it's like it goes to like our just I guess our basic need to believe that Democratic politicians like have our back when they really don't. And I think like we want them to be idols that like care about us and that are good people. And they're usually not. And it's like we got to let go of that because I think we want them to look like. presidential basically you know what I mean I think that's part of it too is that like put it I like those guys I mean the Fauci cover is abysmal that's a whole different issue but like the Beto O'Rourke cover like that looked presidential you know what I mean like it looks like they made him look like a leader In a 90s, 2000s Rolling Stones. Totally, totally, totally. Which is perfect for Chris. I know what you mean, though. You mean the best time of this country, the greatest time to come alive? Yeah, when you said you got Vanity Fair, I had the Rolling Stones subscription when I was in high school, and I just remember all those David LaChapelle covers, and I was thinking about how much they formed my idea of what an image is. Rolling Stone, I mean, spin, because it was a little cooler. Yeah, the early LaChapelle Britney Spears in Rolling Stone where she's on the little kid's bike.

and like i just remember like it just like the mail would come and it just it was so bright and it didn't look like anything else and it was like getting something so exciting it came every week wasn't it weekly weekly and then you would read the charts on the on the last page i'll show you what that was my favorite thing i i mean oh chart hive spin spin had the charts too i think i think they all had charts in the back they all did yeah they all did damn bro yeah um There's been a Twitter question popping up a lot about what is the biggest musical act that you saw in the smallest venue. Have you guys seen that? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You guys got something chambered? I saw the XX at Pianos. I'm trying to think. Oh, my God. I'm so bad at these pop quiz questions. You're killing me. Don't worry. I saw... XX of the Pianos, not that good, Chris. I mean, they sell out Madison Square Garden now. Do they? I feel like they do, yeah. Where did they go? I think they just chill. Yeah. That's the first one that came to mind. I might have better, but I feel like Pianos is also like 100 people. Were you there when I DJed with them at three of clubs? Bitch, I paid you for that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So then I was saying maybe that should be... Jamie XX DJ CDJ set at three of clubs, the worst place in Hollywood. That was a fucking sick ass party. Paid for by Hornitos Tequila. Hornitos, baby. That's such a Chris Black tweet, you know? All you have to do is tweet that sentence and everybody would understand exactly what you were trying to say. It's a different time. But Jason, I feel like you've seen crazy because Jason used to promote a party in Hollywood and it was – you've seen – I feel like everybody played that thing. I mean I think the biggest one for me personally was probably Daft Punk in a 400-person cap room. How did that happen? Oh, because they were at that – they performed at that party? Yeah.

one of tomas one of them went on and dj without sans mask and and played some music when all those ed banger guys were playing together at the same time but also like lady gaga played there and all these other people that's crazy it's crazy to think about how big daft punk was for like three years they could still probably like yeah but i'm saying but i know that but i'm saying like there was like a fervor about daft punk and it was I think it was twice as big as L.A. than it was in New York. Yeah, because of the Coachella performance made everyone lose their shit about it. That's why. It's like people had never done drugs before. Like, come on, losers. Was it Freeview to EDM? Is that what they kind of were in a way? I would say so, yeah. I mean, because they were making, you know, sample-based dance music, you know, in the early 90s. Like everyone else was. Yeah, before they were wearing masks and everything. And then once they became so huge, they had enough money to spend a few million dollars on production and then really take it to the next level where it's not just like two guys DJing in the corner of a booth in the club, but it's like a football stadium. Have you seen what they look like under the helmets? Yeah, they're just like weird-looking French guys. One of them is pretty good-looking. The other one, a little troll-y, a little gnome-y. How cool must it be to wear a helmet for a living but then be hot? That is cool as fuck. That was ahead of the time, too, to wear those helmets. I feel like that's kind of like a very now thing to hide your identity kind of vibe. Especially in the EDM market full of all these goddamn studio ugly. Marshmallow. Marshmallow. Oh, my God. Marshmallow, Deadmau5, and then like 10 other people. Oh, God. I mean, I think those guys, and Jason, I don't mean to talk down the EDM community to remember. Choose your words wisely. But I feel like they just need, I mean, the reality is they're standing up there with CDJs. So you need as much going on as possible to keep people engaged. And that's why they spend so much on production or wear a helmet.

It's brilliant. It's really boring to watch people just play with CDJs. It's music that was never meant to be watched. It's music that you're supposed to get high as fuck or drunk and just dance around and find somebody to have sex with and then go home with them. That's the whole point of going to the club, not just standing there being awesome. I love when you fucking explain things to me like that. Yeah, hell yeah, baby. I always wondered what people went to the club for. And then you just summed it up. It sounds obvious to you, but a lot of people have forgotten that. Well, the club is, I mean, we're never going to the club again. You know, Alex, are you an LCD sound system apologist? I don't really know. It's not for me. I mean, yeah, I get why people like it, but I just don't. Like, I don't. I'm actually surprised only because I know you were there for the heyday of that. I don't know why I just never connected to it. But his wine bar is right by my house and I went one time. I've heard it's good but not cheap. Yeah, that's exactly what it is. So it's a restaurant in Brooklyn. Yes, basically. I think LCD is like the... an introduction to dance music for people who are like into John Mayer and stuff like that. And they're like, Oh, I can, this is, this is dance music that I can listen to. Cause it's like, I think a lot about the change over in our generation from guitars to electronic music. Like it's really crazy to think like people that were kind of in the hipster world or whatever you want to call it. Like for, I mean, guitars were sort of like what, kind of dominated like that world for a really long time and now they're like basically non-existent in that world i mean they're kind of coming back a little bit i don't want to talk about it um you know it really hurts me to my core um but like if you think about like what like what are the indie venues in new york like they're places that play electronic music and oh no for sure i mean i think that we have to realize that the you know meet me in the bathroom era is is not coming back

Yeah, you got marquee kinfolk clothes, so that's it, baby. I spent a lot of time at kinfolk. I didn't, but a lot of people seemed to be upset. Yeah, I spent a lot of time there. Wow, I forgot you're such a Brooklyn scene-ster. I'm a Brooklyn scene-ster. You're at James Murphy's Wine Bar. You're at fucking kinfolk. Chris, we gotta get laid somehow, alright? That's true. That's like the lamest Tinder profile of all time. if Chris Black if Chris Black calls you a Brooklyn scene sir like you're I don't know if you're in trouble or like I don't know no I I do it out of love, even though I'm staunchly anti Brooklyn. I feel like Chris is, you know, Chris is simply a Brooklyn scenester that happens to live in the Lower East Side. You're like Ian. He hates Brooklyn, too. But, you know, Chris, you've kind of like you're a little bit of a guru to me because like I try to like eat like I'm trying to like all through pandemic. I try to eat super good and been exercising all the time. And I always think about like your dedication to like diet. I love I love to hear that. It will it'll change your life. I'm telling you really well. And I think you probably were the person who. made me aware of Joe Holder, probably. I do his videos now and stuff like that. You come to my mind when I'm like, oh, I don't want to exercise today. I'm like, Chris Black would fucking exercise. Damn. Hell yeah. This is the greatest thing you've ever told me. Jason, shut the fuck up. Stop talking. Chris, you cannot fling compliments of this level at Chris Black. It'll ruin my fucking week. No, guys, I just, no, look, I am no expert, I am no master, but I do think that if you just stay after it, it will eventually pay off. That's all. Spoken like a true guru. That's all it is. And you have discipline. I'm, well, what I've been told before, the only edge I have is my willingness to suffer, is what I've been told. So when some, like maybe Jason would quit, I would continue on, but it may not be pretty.

But I would continue on because I'm willing to take the abuse. Is that like a psychological sadomasochistic kind of thing? Precisely. I would say probably. I mean, I'm not asking anyone to step on my nuts with a Louboutin, but I'm, you know, like... That's an interesting thing to bring up, Chris. I know. No, no, no. I grew up Baptist in the South. We don't have Catholics, really. I don't know. Is there Baptist guilt? I know there's Catholic guilt. no baptists are pretty it's kind of just regular to be honest with you like it's kind of like regular ass like really like christianity like baseline go to go to church on the on easter christmas that's about it i mean you go to church we went to church twice a week but like yes well chris what's the what's the like i feel like you I'm not saying that you would ever join something like Hillsong. I don't think you ever would. But I do think like there is crossover between the like eat healthy exercise, sober thing and Hillsong. And I'm really curious, like, first of all, were you ever were you ever tempted or like interested? And second of all, what do you think? Do you have any personal experience with that whole song? And what do you think of that phenomenon? No, no. Basically, I went to church, like I said, twice a week, growing up, always. And then when I hit about 12 and discovered punk and skateboarding and the important stuff, I was like, oh, this is fun. Jacking off. Jacking off, of course. The third in the trifecta. I was kind of like, oh, this shit is stupid. I'm good. I mean, my parents still made me go, but I didn't care. And then it got deeper into hardcore and punk. You realize like, oh, I'm an atheist or whatever. I don't believe in this, blah, blah, blah. You give it like a word almost. Hillsong, I am blown away by because religion is just deeply uncool. Like being Christian is the least cool thing I can think of. So for them to like get a cool typeface and some celebrities to do this and like make merch is honestly, it's mind blowing. I have a really hard time wrapping my head around it.

What a branding exercise. It's really crazy. I mean, Jason and I need to go. Like we said we were going to go. I think in some ways I don't – I mean, I think celebrities – and honestly, you probably know this better than we do, Alex. They're searching for acceptance in something, you know, desperately. I think that's true of most people. I mean, like I'm interested in it as just like an indication that even for people who like live in like – Again, to use the word hipster, like people who are hipsters or whatever, like have the same like moral black hole at the center of their lives where they don't have a ton of meaning in their lives. And like they've glommed on to this thing that gives them a sense of meaning. And like I'm not knocking them for that. Like everybody, I understand the search for like meaning and like whatever it is for you, like God bless, like literally, you know. But it is like it's interesting to me in that way. Like I think like. There's so many religions now. And I do think like what I think the reason why I see the overlap Hillsong with like diet and exercise is like I've been doing these Nike exercise classes and it's not Joe Holder so much who does this like he's actually very down to earth. But many of them like they you know, and this is the kind of old news because SoulCycle was all about this, too. But they talk like preachers. Yeah. Oh, for sure. For sure. And like they're building these like what they call communities. And it's just like funny that there's just like. you can't take away that human impulse. Like it's just everywhere and it shows up in so many different ways. And it's just really interesting that Hillsong has become like this. Honestly, I've never thought of it that way. That's really a great take. I think like, yeah, I think people are like really lacking. So I think most people are like really lacking like something not to be, I'm not trying to make this a dark podcast. It's supposed to be funny, but I just mean like. Yeah, it's interesting to me because it makes me realize it's literally everyone. It doesn't matter what your socioeconomic thing or if you live in Calabasas or not. You still have a lack of meaning in your life that you're searching for something to kind of feel. Well, I think the reason it strikes celebrities, I mean, obviously it's also because we see that, right? So we're aware of it. But I do think it's like, I think that being famous, especially, I mean, the Hillsong.

crowd is very famous it's the kardashians it's justin bieber it's hayley bieber it's like that level of person um and they've done a lot of sinning yeah well they've also done a lot of sinning but i think it's i think it's just kind of like you know you don't you're it's very it's a lonely lonely existence and i think so i think that if you are able to fool yourself into believing in a like higher power that makes daily life much easier and that's, that's all it takes. You know what I mean? A hundred percent. Like, I totally agree with you. Like, I think like, yeah, I think it's kind of a miserable existence. Like I'm not trying to romanticize them because they have wonderful lives, but I think it is miserable. And I wonder if there's ever going to be a tipping point where like being famous starts to not be, I mean, it seems impossible that this would ever be. It would require like a huge cultural shift, like a massive thing to happen. That's not like the desire of people. Yeah. Like, It does not seem particularly appealing to me. And I'm not saying that in a way that's like, like the money seems great. It seems great to be able to go to private jets to always get the thing you want to get to be able, you know, but in terms of like, I would not, I can barely go to the bodega. And not worry what people like think of what I'm wearing or whatever. Like the idea that they have to live like that, like seems they don't seem happy. They seem to spiral out of control very often. And I just wonder if like, could it ever be that people are like, wait a minute, that is not, that is like not worth it. I mean, look, as a person who thinks it's totally worth it, I don't know. I cannot relate, but I think, I think it depends on what. what that thing is that makes you famous. What are you famous for? Are you famous for just being an influencer or being hot or whatever it is? Or are you famous because you have a gift that is so amazing you had to share with the world? That's true. That's very true. And I think that's, you can see how different people handle that based on what they're, you know what I mean? Like Adele, one of the greatest voices we've ever heard is not really, you know, she probably lives a relatively normal life. You know what I mean? Because, because she's chosen that. And,

I think a fan of someone like that kind of respects the talent. Whereas like, um, uh, you know, uh, a model or like an actress or not even an actress I'm saying, but like an Instagram person or a Tik TOK person, like people don't give a fuck. They think they don't even think you're real, you know, like you're, you're here for my entertainment. So start, start rapping rapper. Yeah. Which is dark, but like, that's the reality. I think it is tiered, even if people don't fully realize it. I asked this to Mariah Carey because I was interested in it in the sense that she's the only person that's been through that in the way that she has. Because everyone who came up right before her in the 80s who was as famous as a pop star. There will never be pop stars as famous as Michael Jackson, Whitney Houston. Very true. George, like Madonna, like no one will ever be that famous again. And maybe Barack Obama is the only person since who has been that famous. But they all like except for Madonna, they all ended up with terrible endings. Prince, George Michael, Whitney Houston, Michael Jackson. Like and I, you know, I was trying to figure out what is so hard. And like she wasn't really able to communicate to me like what it what it. precisely is that kills them or kills people like them and she just kept using the word stress like she like she said stress is a killer and I was like I don't really know what stress means and she wasn't able to communicate it but it is like it like you can't like that's all anecdotal evidence that the most famous pop stars ever all OD'd but it seems like it's got to have a connection like it well I mean the reason you're doing drugs at that level is to escape reality obviously yeah and and the reality is the fame and i also think the reality is the pressure uh like you said to support this entire industry like we were talking about the beginning with britney spears um and i think all of that stuff combined and also i mean with drugs a big part of it is access right like and if you're if you're you don't have to leave the house you know somebody gets it for you

So it's, it's, it's very easy to escape. And then you're also paranoid. So you stay inside and that's just, that's when things get dark and bad, you know, you live in these airport hangars and like, just like air conditioned airport hangars doing drugs and like not leaving ever. It's, it's an interest. I mean, you know, you've also, I think it's like, look, those, all those people that we talked about, you know, or that you just listed, I mean, have given us. so much it's crazy it's insane that they and they died you know they died like young but not young you know it's not river phoenix they died at 40 50 right what i mean it's like 60 it's it's it's i think maybe when you've given that much that like at a certain point maybe you just can't do it anymore you're like your body yeah like your body can't do anymore like think about what prince's output was like that's fucking insane like that'll that will never happen again You know, it's like, yeah, the fentanyl patch killed his ass for sure. But like, there's more to it than that. Yeah. Also, when you know, when you have such like a prolific output of of art that you've shared with the world at a certain point, you just you're you're done and you're you're ready to tap out. And why do you want to live? You know, you don't want to get old and ugly because, you know, that's that's the antithesis of what your whole life has been. And you're like, what's the best way to go out? I'd rather go out floating on a cloud of fentanyl than, you know, putter out and die. Because I think that the accidental, I mean, you know, accidental overdoses, obviously it's real, but you also kind of know what you're doing to an extent. Yeah, there's a lot of ways to kill yourself. You know, you know what you're doing. You know, like what you can handle. And a lot of overdoses happen because, you know, people. take some time off and they come back and think they can do the same amount. But you kind of know that. As a drug user, you have a loose idea of what you can handle. But luckily, I think today's younger generation of super, super famous artists and celebs like that, I think they're a lot more well-armed to handle all of that pressure. It doesn't seem to get to them as much.

As a music writer, I've always been bummed that Beyonce is a figure who won't engage with the press in an authentic way and won't give interviews. Because I think it's a bummer that we don't have a window into how she creates a lot of the things that she does. Because I'm a huge fan and I want to know. But at the same time, I think she came up at the same time as Britney. She came up when Whitney Houston was spiraling out of control. And I think she's so smart. she saw those two people and more people, but those two people. And she said, I don't want to end up like that. Like whatever happened to them, I don't want that. And I think she has built a life for herself where she like, whatever her discipline and structure is, it has worked. I mean, she's still got a long life ahead of her. So who knows what her life will bring, but it's really impressive that she, I mean, she's the only person who comes even close to nipping at the heels of Michael Jackson, I think in terms of like, yeah, all popularity and like create a creative sort of peak and all that kind of stuff. And she hasn't really melted down and she has maintained. with some blips the elevator all that kind of stuff of course but like she has maintained a relative what seems like at least from the outside a relatively like healthy existence and she doesn't spill out of clubs and she never she you know what i mean it wasn't that just wasn't her thing and she started so young and so i really give her a lot of credit for that and i understand like it i'm upset that we don't have those interviews but i also what do you what do you think some somebody like beyonce does to unwind if she's not taking drugs Because that level of pressure, you have to let some of that steam out or else that bubble is going to pop one day. Yeah, I mean, I think she's deeply religious, like grew up in the church. And I think she exercises probably so much. And I think that has probably just like what we were talking about. She's an athlete. I think of her almost as an athletic pop star in a way. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

She trains in that way, and I think that's probably been really sustaining for her, too. Do you think she is a person who has fun, true fun, in her day-to-day life? It's a good question. I've thought about this before, actually. I don't know, because it's like she's so normal seeming that I wonder if like that even is just a facade. It's really hard to tell. I mean, she she seems to have a relatively it's not a normal life. Obviously, she's like a billionaire. But I feel like like Oprah or somebody like that has seems to be having a more fun existence than than Beyonce, perhaps. Oprah's killed it. And Oprah's in the twilight, though, too. Oprah's like Beyonce is like. in the heat of the storm. You know what I mean? Oprah's kind of like, Oprah can open that second bottle of wine for lunch and it's all good. Exactly. Oprah's also not married to another famous person. It's a very different, you know, Stedman's a cuck. You know that. But I think that, but I think it's, I think he, I think he's a cuck. Don't come for a Stedman like that. Steady Sted. I love Stedman. I love Stedman. Stedman, look, I would happily be Stedman. I'm not sparring shots, but he's a cuck. You know when Stedman was in the news on the reg? We don't talk about Stedman. I hope to find a man as steady and solid as Stedman. Do not call him steady. Yeah, steady Stedman. Wow. Alex, thank you. We covered a lot today. Oh, I'm glad. Was it good? Yeah, it was great. I've said this before maybe, but I think one of the things that I love the most about my life is that I get to talk to people that really... like think about and write about music for a living in a way that I as a fan can't you know what I mean so it's I find it to be like the greatest joy to really talk about this with people who are either making it or writing about it or doing it like in a real way because as an outsider it makes me feel like an insider and there's no better feeling than feeling like an insider

That warms my heart because I feel like an outsider most of the time. So thank you for it. No, my pleasure. Tell people where they can find you on the internet. Oh, well, I have a website that's alexgfrank.com. I have a Twitter that's alexgfrank and I have an Instagram that's alexgfrank. But I don't really post that much, but I'm trying to be disciplined and post more because I think I'm supposed to or something. Yes. Yes. Excellent. I love the growth. That's the consensus of everyone. My website is pretty. I designed it myself. The website also has all your stories. The stuff that we talked about today, you can go there and kind of reference that stuff, too. It's all there, which is helpful. But thank you, Alex. Thank you, guys. We'll see you soon. Okay, bye. All right, bye. Bye.