053. - Phillip Picardi

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Hello, Chris. What up, bro? How are we? Oh, you know, man, I'm feeling a little gassed, if I'm being honest with you. I think our tennis, you know, I had the trainer, then we played tennis. I ran this morning. The heat, I think it's just taking a toll on my weak East Coast frame. Are you taking naps? I haven't. I can't really nap nap, but I take a slight siesta. I call it a lay down. Is that like 15 minutes? Yeah, I would say 15 to 20. I shut my eyes, but nothing really happens. I usually feel more groggy when I rise, but what are you going to do? I do a similar thing. I usually only have to do it when it's really, really hot out, but after I finish doing whatever. outdoor fitness activity i'll hit the cold shower and then just kind of lay down for you know like you said you know 15 20 minutes unclear if it's real sleep or not but you can kind of you can kind of get a little something going uh yes yes i'd like to get something going um i love i love when i get something going um it's so rare though Otherwise, pretty good because Tory Lanez got arrested and they said that he's 5'2", 120 pounds. Obviously, this is a Tall Kings only podcast, but that would make me laugh no matter what. So 5'2", that was the official hype. That was recorded by the police department as an official height. That's not his Hollywood height. I'm unclear. I mean, this was on baller alert, I believe. I was just saying, because hopefully, if he said, I'm 5'2", that means he's actually touching closer to 5, a flat 5, if you factor in the 2-inch rule for Hollywood Heights.

Damn, he cannot be that short. That's fucked up. I mean, Hollywood Heights is fresh on the mind because my girlfriend is doing a shoot or styling Adrienne Brody for a shoot tomorrow who is basically her Whitney Port, I've learned. And the only thing I could do, the only thing that came out of my mouth when I was discussing it with her is, you know, he's only... 5'11", right? He's not really 6'1". So you're saying he says he's 6'1", meaning he's 5'11". Yeah, if you Google Adrian Brody height, it says 6'1", but his shoe size, 9 1⁄2". You know what, Jason? I know you wear, what do you wear, a 17? That's right. Yeah, but you ain't got no Oscar. I think it might even out, big dog. It's not even at all. It is still very much in his favor. Oh, hold on. You know, Jason, I didn't realize this. He actually is the youngest actor ever to win Best Actor. Really? Yes, he was 29 when he won for The Pianist. holy shit but but he does take an l because it was directed by roman polanski so i you know i can't yo facts don't matter dog facts don't matter this suit is really all over the place like i can't tell who's better i mean you know i really can't but that's yeah thank you for telling me that because that's that's good ammo to have in the war and i'll be like so you really i mean i just think it's funny that you support somebody who would work with roman polanski exactly exactly exactly i'm i'm here to make sure my king comes out on top Thank you for that. In all arenas, at all costs, at every turn. I'd like to think that also our discussion on his height affected her wardrobe selections because I saw a pair of Bottega Veneta shoes that had quite the heel height to them. It's kind of like a Frankenstein.

It looks kind of like a low-top, plain black leather Doc Martin. Maybe you've seen them before, but it has a Frankenstein heel lift to them that maybe Robert De Niro might wear in a movie. Not De Niro. Which one was it from? Was it De Niro or Pacino where they had the BTS photo of them when they were filming? What was it? What was the three-hour movie that came out on Netflix? the irishman yeah i think it was from the irishman where it had a bts shot and and he's he's wearing his mafioso gear and and like some five inch platform heels like you might have if you have uh you know one leg longer than the other type shit he's he's standing on a damn apple box he's got he's got the tom cruise 11s on damn i love that i mean what if i actually If it's a new Bottega shoe that's the look of it, then I think it's fine. I think when you're adding aftermarket parts, when you're adding the spoiler. Yeah, they didn't have to add the kids' footlocker atelier booster. But also, now that you said that, I think that's a great name for a short Kings dating app calling it Applebox. Something to think about if you work in apps, if you work in tech. I know we have a lot of tech listeners here. We're big in the yay area. Big Silicon Valley. Shout out to all my shooters in Alameda and San Jose. Everyone who is working hard on the front lines of user journeys and experiences. You guys are fucking killing it. You guys are killing it. And honestly, what would we do without apps? You know what I mean? During this downturn in society, what would we be doing without applications? We definitely wouldn't be using Slack to communicate with each other. That's for damn right. I hate to think about it, to be honest with you. A pre-app world is not one that I want to live in. Yeah, not my America. Speaking of America and you being a newly born California resident, did you just see the news? About what?

Your boy Cuomo put in... There are 22 states in America. One of them, spoiler alert, is California. But these are considered hotspot states to him. So if you are traveling from one of those states to New York, you have to fill out... a special form and paperwork, like you're traveling to another country perhaps, and then you are put on a 14-day quarantine. Yeah, we'll see about that. What do you mean? We will see about that. No, I'm just kidding. Well, I mean, I've got a couple more weeks, so who knows what will happen. I feel like this stuff moves very quickly. Well, the news was just announced. today so you know in a couple weeks they should probably get everything up and running so they'll be able to implement all those plans perfectly so your your quarantine will be will be all set up and logistics will be pretty turnkey for you for your 14 day um sentencing so i guess i live here now but that was my next question you know does this does this change things i mean honestly i don't even know man this shit's all trash are you gonna go a little b style and become a california boy uh well i mean i i'm still uh you know uh happily paying an exorbitant amount of rent in an apartment i haven't been in since march once so you know it feels a little bad in that way but also i mean california is is i don't know it seems like it's bad but also it's not on a day-to-day basis it is yeah it is bad but also fucking i guess everywhere is also very bad well except new york but who knows if who knows if if i mean i think i think all these guys are also just trying to flex as hard as they can um on on whoever especially california because they're big shit talkers and the only competition for new york that's true i mean we learned shit talking from you though

uh that's well we're better at it i would agree you are you are and that's fine i i know i know i wonder i wonder that's my whole thing with this i wonder how they can ensure that that somebody i've always wondered that because like when they were doing it in asia it's like the government had they put the tracking app on the phone they come check on shit i don't think that will ever happen in america yeah how well i mean at least not in the near present future. But yeah, how will that be enforced? Because the amount of people coming into New York on a daily basis is extremely high. Does the court assign a social services worker for every person entering New York? That seems like an extreme... I mean, that just seems costly to say the least. I mean, it's positively impossible to enforce. Yes. Yeah, that's what I would say. I mean, I also, I don't understand why. Can I just go get a test? Like, doesn't that make more sense? That's a good point. I mean, I guess it really kind of depends on who's asking because there is so much, you know. that's still up in the air yeah maybe that you know maybe just getting a test isn't good enough because you know the test itself is still a little bit of a question mark on it yeah but that seems insane to me if you get if you have it i mean you know i i get that but also like if you show up with a negative test it's like fuck y'all kind of to me that that's like what more can you do besides have a negative test well i mean that would be that would that would make sense if the test itself was a 100 sound you know, perfect test, which I don't think anybody is confident in saying. I don't, but I also, but does that mean that quarantining for two weeks is absolutely 100% fixes it too? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. Like, you guys got to give me a better option. Yeah, you got shit or a different shit. Those are your two options. I mean, you know, I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.

Um, and speaking of crossing that bridge, when we come to it, we haven't even talked about squirrel jam yet. Um, and I'm sure we will. So I don't want our listeners to think that we're not going to, uh, to cover that. And I'm sure our guests will want to, will want big, big jam is really, uh, I've never talked about a, a bread topping this much in my entire life. Um, but man, I love it. I gotta say, um, But I also, you know, yeah, we can talk about it with our guests. I just think it's a it's it's absolutely insane how big this got because it's very niche story. Like, I would I don't know if it's just because people are so online that it's like like there's nothing to talk about. But I mean, you know, there's a few things to talk about that I can think of that are more important than a hidden kitchen in a niche L.A. restaurant. Yeah, I mean. There's a lot to unpack there, but yeah, I'm sure this is a story that happens every day in all parts of our world, and it does not even get a mention in the news whatsoever, let alone a nationwide top-trending news story. I know. I blame the canceled Bon Appetit. The Bone Bros. The Bone Bros here again. Our guest today is Philip McCarty. He is a writer and editor. He was, until fairly recently, the editor-in-chief of Out Magazine. He's pretty well known for being the catalyst for turning Teen Vogue into a must-read from a political and cultural arena. He also has a new podcast that just came out last month. And he's a contributing writer for GQ as well, right? Yes, he's the grooming editor at GQ. So I have a lot of questions. So that's a job. He's taking food out of your mouth is what it sounds like because that's a CB job right there. Yeah, that's on site. But he honestly, he looks more well-groomed than me. Well, he's got more of a canvas to work with.

Exactly. And he's more accomplished, so therefore he can have it. You know what I mean? He deserves it. But anyway, yeah, I think he might have just moved to LA, actually. Sick, sick, sick, sick. He has a newsletter called Fruity that I subscribe to where he wrote about leaving New York, and it was good, but also there's some pretty funny stuff in there. He was very upset with himself about wearing an Apple Watch on the red carpet at the Met Gala. Which is something that TJ can relate to. Asterisk, adds to notes, asterisk. All right, let's give him a buzz. Oh, this is huge for me personally. This episode of How I'm Gone is brought to you by TaskRabbit. Oh, baby, let me tell you something. This is not a joke. I use TaskRabbit a lot. because I can't do anything. You need some art hung? TaskRabbit. You need something put together? A cabinet? Got to reach that cheese grater on the top shelf? TaskRabbit. Anything you need, TaskRabbit can take care of it for you. How it works, TaskRabbit connects you with skilled taskers in your area. They can help you move. They can assemble furniture, repairs, yard work, mounting, and more. You can search for a tasker based on cost, skill set, availability, and past client reviews so you know exactly who's showing up and can have confidence that they know what they're doing because taskers have assembled over 3.4 million pieces of furniture, completed 700,000 home repairs. handled 1.5 million moves, and the numbers are just going up, Jason. Yeah, throw a little money at the problem. It's not so expensive. And that job that you really don't want to do is something that another person out in the world is very good at doing and would gladly do it in exchange for a little bit of money. So when life happens, your to-do list grows. Get ahead of it now and get $15 off your first task at TaskRabbit.com or grab the TaskRabbit app using promo code how long taskers book up faster, especially for same day tasks. So book trusted home help today. That is $15 off your first task using promo code how long with the TaskRabbit app or at TaskRabbit.com. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Squarespace. Obviously, Jason, you and I spend a lot of time on the World Wide Web, sort of our peers, our listeners, our friends, our colleagues, maybe even your parents if they're freaky. And if you're doing anything in the world,

writing, taking pictures. I do topless boxing. You need a website. Exactly. A website that works, that does what it's supposed to do, that allows you to be creative, but also business-minded. Jason, there's one place to go for that, Squarespace. Yeah, Chris, I'm over here. I'm modifying calculators and putting Claude inside of them so you could cheat at school. And I just want a place where I could have everything all in one place. I can have the SEO tools. So those future graduates can find me and I'm able to accept quote unquote donations for my services that might be gray area. You know what I mean? And then email campaigns. Hey, I got a new 2.3 version upgrade. Boom, boom, boom. Get the analytics going. Raise some money. Show your investor all of your cool analytics of what's going on. They're going to want to get in early and we can use Blueprint AI to make your website look as professional. as your competition, if not more. So head to squarespace.com slash howlong for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use offer code howlong to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain. All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Quince. Jason, the temps are warming up. It's getting hot out there. Summer always changes how I get dressed. I need pieces that feel lighter, more breathable, and that are just easy but still put together. I don't want to look like a slob. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high-quality essentials that feel and look amazing. Breathable linen and soft organic cottons. Well-made basics but without the luxury markups. That rare balance where everything feels elevated. but still effortless. Yeah, Chris, linen season is here. I wore a linen blazer to dinner a few nights ago in the warm California sun. But, you know, you got that Italy trip coming up this summer and quality European linen pants and shirts. Upgrade that look starting at just $34. You know, if you get a nice linen suit, a little t-shirt underneath it, some chill shoes, you're looking good, but you're staying cool. The inside of your special areas are nice and dry as you turn up with your besties. So elevate that summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com slash how long for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns, even on a nice holiday now available in Canada.

That is Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash how long. That'll get you free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince punto com slash how long. Hey. Hello. How are you? Welcome to the number one shirtless podcast on iTunes. It's too hot. Philip, have you relocated to L.A.? Yeah, I'm in LA. Do you want to see my view from my apartment? Yeah, please. Wow, this is a full tour. Sure. Oh, shit. Oh, damn. For the listeners, he's got the beach in his purview. I can't tell. Is the house a modern style? What are we talking about? No, this house is not modern. This was built in 1921 or something, so it is 100 years old. What's the Addy? And it definitely shows it. What neighborhood are you guys in? We live in Manhattan Beach. Interesting choice. Why Manhattan Beach? Sorry, let me turn this around as I go into the bedroom. We chose Manhattan Beach because my fiancé is a doctor. He's an emergency medicine physician. And he was recruited by a hospital out here. And it's in the South Bay. So one of his stipulations was... you get to work from home and I have to commute. So I would like a commute that is, um, South of LAX, like a starting point that's South of LAX. So really it was Manhattan or Hermosa or Redondo. And we, it was just really hard to find a place. And this was honestly the, I think this was only the third place we looked at and we were like, okay, we're ready. Did you guys do it all like via FaceTime or did you just fly out here and spend a couple of days? We did it entirely via FaceTime. Um, so we had security. a month and a half before we moved and then yeah and then everything was was moved across country so it was and so we were packed like you know while wearing masks and like you know keeping like shifts in the apartment of how many people could be in their path

and it was yeah furniture shopping was an absolute nightmare um but you know it all kind of has it's like it's like it's harder and it's more complicated and shipping is hard and all of that stuff but then it also just feels like all of the puzzle pieces are moving anyway um and we're just so grateful for like a really beautiful change of scenery and that everything happened safely and that neither of us has covid even after flying across the country yeah yeah what a great outlook on life I agree. I mean, I flew here, but I keep telling people I find the airplane one of the less busier places that I've been. You know what I mean? Definitely. I mean, it's still just like six hours of circulated air with strangers. So that was not. I feel like you are in the unfortunate position of knowing how the sausage is made being engaged to a doctor. That is definitely true. Like, you know, but you know, one of the things that I, the comforts that I have is they're not so much worried about the surface transmission these days as they are about the circulated air transmission. Does that make sense? Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that seems more feasible for me, a non-doctor. Like that kind of makes sense. We just talked about this, but before. I have to go back to New York at some point because I live there. And Cuomo just announced that if you're coming from California, you now have to quarantine for two weeks. Yeah. I mean, it's serious. I get where he's coming from, you know? But what I was saying to Jason is like, but can I just take a test? Like, what's better? I don't even know. You know what I mean? I don't know what makes more sense. I guess it doesn't quite work like that, right? Because you could technically test negative. But then couldn't the virus, therefore, like, couldn't you have been exposed to the virus on the plane? Yeah, I'm sure. I feel like there's not really a good answer and people are just doing whatever they can, which I, you know, of course, that's what they have to do as leaders, you know? But it is a very, it's a very interesting time. But even though California is worse, it also seems better. I don't know if you agree. I do agree. When we first got out here, I was, it was remarkably, it felt so remarkably different. And a lot of that has to do with just the sheer, like people live in houses or, you know, there aren't as many high rises, certainly where we are and people have cars. And so your commute is not shared with people, generally speaking.

And so, yeah, I definitely felt a little bit willy nilly when we got here, I will say. Like, I remember us landing and like walking down the street with our masks on and being one of the few couples wearing masks. daring and going oh boy like i just he he you know he was working in queens before he got out here um so he was in the epicenter of new york's epicenter right and then we got here and we kind of thought oh we're in the clear now and like the worst is behind us california is reopening and then we were looking at those case rates and we were like baby rude awakening time yeah that's That's exactly how I feel. I came out here. I was trying to play tennis and eat at restaurants, and now I can only play tennis. Well, guys, it's starting to sound like everything in California was going well until both of you guys showed up. Oh, yeah. We're the problem, aren't we? Damn, that's a good point. I mean, that is a classic. I don't want to point fingers, but. Yeah, that's a classic problem with the New York imports, you know. Yes. Well, so are you working? So you're working from home, though, is what you're saying. That is the plan. What have you been doing during quarantine? But I mean, the newsletter, I'm a subscriber. We talked about that. I really, first and foremost, I think we need to talk about your Leaving New York newsletter. Okay. And I just, the part about wearing the Apple Watch on the red carpet really hit me. I thought that was really funny. Why did that hit you? Do you wear an Apple Watch? No, I refuse to wear one, but Jason is a big Apple Watch guy. Okay. All right, Jason. So I'm an Apple Watch sympathizer, but Chris, I think Chris, you know, overarching theme of that is Chris needs you to sort of talk him into moving to LA because it's starting to become inevitable and it's going to be hard for him because he's a lifelong New Yorker, you know? Yes. Listen, I, as much as I love my Apple products, I recommend wearing an Apple Watch.

you don't recommend wearing an apple watch i i stopped okay really because your body just got so good that you didn't need the statistics anymore what's going on okay i first of all i wish no that is the only thing that i miss about it was that like after a workout it is so satisfying to like look at your rings being completed and all of that um however There is something practically just like manic and masochistic maybe about getting constant notifications on your wrist and on your phone and on your laptop. Like at a certain point, I just felt like I was a notification receptacle. You're too connected. I was definitely too connected. And at one point I was like, I was so overwhelmed because it was a really bad day. at work this was like when i first got the watch too and it was a really bad day at work there was some scandal happening and i remember that i was like like my, my watch was blowing up so bad and I felt myself getting short of breath. And then my watch was like, Hey, your blood rates really high. You know what I mean? Right now is like a validation that I'm having a panic attack. Yeah. I know. I know that exact sensation. Like when you're trying to concentrate on something and then like a group text where just like five people are just like sending like useless messages and photos and. And it just kind of sends you off into a spiral. I would suggest putting it into do not disturb mode for an hour whenever that happens. That's what I always do. Yeah. The only appeal of it to me is the workout data. I think I would only wear it to exercise because it also allows you to not bring your phone with you, which I think is nice. That's really all I want it for. That's a great hack. But it's also pretty ugly and dorky, especially if you consider yourself a fashionable person who is chic and stylish. It's a little contradictory to that. I know, and that's the struggle I'm dealing with. It's something that keeps me up at night. The world is truly melting, and all I can think about is, is the Apple Watch chic for me or not? I don't know. I just don't know. And the Patek can't give me my heart rate, so I don't know what to do with that one. Exactly. When the Audemars doesn't have any data, I can't. It's not going to let me. It doesn't sync with my AirPods. Chris, you are. A lot of people are going through a lot of struggles right now, but what you are suffering through right now is.

It's paramount to that. It's just like that scene in the Kardashians where Kim Kardashian lost her diamond earring in the ocean. Yes. Kourtney Kardashian came out of her room and was like, Kim, there's people that are dying. Exactly. And really, I want that. That is the best thing to illustrate that I am the Kim of this podcast and Jason is the Kourtney. I'm the Khloe. I'm the Khloe. You're the Chloe. He loves Chloe, but I don't even think... Is it just from a personality standpoint, Jason, or is it also an attraction? I mean, I'm not really attracted to any of them, but I think that... I mean, this is a year ago before... Wait a minute. Are you guys straight? Yes. Yes, both of us are straight. Oh, wow. Okay, you tweet like gay men. That's funny. Wow, that's the nicest thing anyone's ever said to us. Definitely a compliment. I meant it as a compliment. Yes, we are both straight, and I only like Kendall Jenner, just for the record. I think before Khloe had her most recent line of work done where it went a little extra cuckoo, I think on a good day, she became the most sexually attractive Kardashian for me when she kept it together. They are all so beautiful. It really is something to... to watch an entire like family all go through their own self-imposed glow ups. It's true. It's like dominoes falling. It really is. Yeah. And on the one hand, you're like, I am, I'm so happy that they have the resources and the agency to do whatever they want with their bodies and that they do so, so unapologetically and they truly don't care about any of the backlash that they receive for it. And so on, on that, you know, end of things, I'm, I find it just, constantly amusing right because that is just hilarious to me to to watch and it's like go ahead you know but then on the other hand i do remember like working at teen vogue at the time when kylie was was getting her lips done and you know kind of was saying like oh no it's my kylie lip kit that's doing this you know how do we navigate this for an audience of teenage girls who think that like

that overdrawing their lips to absurd amounts is going to make them look like Kylie Jenner because it's false advertising. But it's like also like you want to accept her at her word and you don't want to like critique her and make it look like you're plastic surgery shaming her and like everyone should do it the way they want with their bodies. It was a very delicate line. I've actually never thought about, I mean, I can't even imagine the impact of like the popularity, the rise of plastic surgery on teenage girls at this point. You know what I mean? And you know, too, I do think about that rise on young men also. Gay men rather infamously suffer from a very high percentage of body dysmorphia, high percentage relative to our whatever perceived population size, I guess. I'm not sure about the exact statistics, but it is a well-known and well-documented thing. So do Chris and I, which kind of further solidifies your earlier point about our tweeting habits. Yeah, no, I was a fat teen. And now I'm an exercise freak. So I think it all tracks. Do you think you're overcompensating? Well, I think it also falls into sobriety, which is another classic like exercise thing. So I think it all combines into, I think it's good for me most of the time, but I would say I overdo it from time to time as well. You mean that you basically have, are you insinuating that you sort of replaced whatever your addiction of choice was with exercise? A hundred percent. Okay. Yes. And I, obviously that is better than taking Oxycontin every day. No one can argue that, but there's still issues that come with it. But I do think it could all stem from being a, a overweight youth. You know what I mean? In some way. And was it about being overweight or was it about how people treated you because you were overweight? Actually, I, I have a funny thing about this because I was of course made fun of, cause that's what kids do. But. I think it made me pretty resilient and gave me like a sense of humor that I might not have if I would have been.

You know what I mean? Yeah. So you think there was a pro and a con to your experience? 100% a pro and a con. And I wouldn't have it in your way. It's fine for me. If you're able to weather the storm and make it out the other side, you become a hardened person in terms of sense of humor and ability to let things roll off your back like a wet seal. But I think what we're seeing, and this is what Jason actually and I, we were talking about this yesterday. Kids now, they can't escape because of social media. When I went home, it was over. You know what I mean? When you leave school, when you're in the 90s, it's kind of over. Now I think it follows you everywhere you go, which is the ultimate. I mean, that's inescapable, I would say. It is. It always felt like that. That was one of the things we were always trying to tackle at Teen Vogue, certainly, was talking about. mental health and how you form your own opinion of yourself and then you know it was it was then like a double like i said everything that became a double-edged sword we would talk about body positivity but then like brands would talk about body positivity and then it body positivity became something that it was not really initially intended to be and then that became kind of watered down and then it became its own body ideal and it was it was always you know this whole identity moment of um or how identity is manipulated corporations and capitalism has has has been something bizarre and fascinating and disheartening to observe certainly now that i'm outside of to a to a certain point i'm outside of media i'm no longer in like a position of power within the media industry it is i can see things a lot more clearly like i wish i could have seen those things as they were unraveling but i guess that's what you know experience does but i i do think that that's what i've been just so interesting during this the the black lives matter movement and and what's going on in general People just seem to expect a lot from corporations, which is very surprising to me. I don't think we can put much faith or stock in how a corporation talks about something because I think they obviously have a bottom line that they're concerned with versus just doing the right thing. But making your bottom line is no longer good enough in a world where there's so many other things and people who are in need. Like our Mother Earth, you know.

That's right. Exactly. I mean, I think a lot of corporations have to come to grips with the fact that people are shopping their values and that if they didn't take the care to diversify their newsrooms in there. who is in a distinct capacity within their organizations and their marketing departments and their casting and their creative decisions, that ultimately there was always going to be a backlash. You know, we can't have a bunch of white-led corporations and a bunch of white-led brands that are dictating what culture is because these brands have never dictated what culture is. They saw culture happening predominantly on black and brown people who were making that culture and then they were ripping it off. And I think that really that whole moment was not necessarily about wanting corporations to do better it was just like how much do we have to give you before you are even comfortable saying the words that our lives matter and i think yeah i think that that was the the bare minimum that they could do and and to be frank it's like put your money where your damn mouth is like it's it it you know call reparations don't call reparations whatever you want but the point is that um you these brands have to give back because they've stolen so much And they have to want to do it, not do it because they have to do it because of public pressure. Yeah. Because you can easily tell the difference between a company that's doing it because they want to versus have to. Sure. But then again, I also hear Chris's point where it's like, I don't necessarily need a word statement from every single brand that goes into the ins and outs of white supremacy and don't condemn and condone and don't condone certain things. Right. Like I don't expect, you know, brands to be our justice leader. However, I do expect action from them. Right. And I, and I think that's the important thing. It's like. I would like you to do more than post something on your Instagram. And ideally, those things would have to do with looking internally at how to make your corporation and the makeup and composition of your corporation better and how you're empowering different types of leaders in order to make a broader impact. Well, I think that is also the part that to me is very hard.

to view as, as performative. You know what I mean? If you're hiring people at a, at a high level and giving those opportunities, that's not a photo shoot. You know what I mean? That's something that affects it like from the top down in a bigger way. And I do think that's harder to do and it requires more effort. Sure. Yeah, I agree. I agree with that. And I certainly have seen that through pride campaigns. I mean, pride is, is also been. co-opted, I think, and pretty badly. Would you agree? I would agree. Yes, I would. And I say that as someone who's been in many... a Pride campaign for many a brand. And some of them are better than others and some of them do good and do material good and have given people platforms and work. And that was another one of the parts of this, like when I talk about this double-edged sword, you know, at one point during when we realized that Pride was going to be canceled and that the corporations were all rolling back Pride because there was no parade for them to put their float in. right and there was and it felt tone deaf to all of a sudden sell merchandise with the rainbow slapped on it that also meant that a lot of my friends stopped getting checks that they were counting on for the rest of the year do you know what i mean yeah so like a lot of that money that goes to that is the only time in the year that many of us in the community hear from these major fashion brands or these major hospitality brands or these major liquor brands, right? And that is a check. And so it sucks that- That's your bread and butter where you're banking on. Yeah. That's your Coachella if you were a EDM artist. Exactly, yeah. Correct. Yeah. God help me if I was an EDM artist. I mean, I think that is an issue for sure. And we all see it. I mean, I think somebody was like, showing where as the month changed, all the Instagram avatars lost the rainbow within 12.01 a.m., which was pretty funny. But it's also like that's how a lot of stuff works with these companies, regardless of what it is. But it's funny when you put a microscope on it and show how it actually works. For sure, yeah. I mean, that's exactly right. And explaining to, you know,

white male executives that pride is a 24, seven, 365 opportunity has been particularly challenging. It is something that I've done for the past three years. I was about to say, I feel like that's your full-time job. I have had a very, I've had very colorful conversations. Um, none of them ended the way that I wanted them to. Um, but yeah, but you know, you do learn, I mean like eventually that like some people are just not worth fighting for and you're better off. encouraging your followers to take their money elsewhere. Um, or just, you know, whatever money you were going to spend on a pride campaign or those, that new pair of pride shoes or whatever it is, donate it instead to many of the black LGBTQ led organizations like the ochre project or the trans justice funding project. Um, two of which are, are, are doing incredible work. I don't, I'm surprised that even if you're a 50 year old white man at a corporation, you don't understand the importance of it, but also like, It's a valuable community to have as a customer. You know what I mean? From a strictly business standpoint, even. I don't know. Why would you want to leave that on the table? I guess the idea is you're afraid of alienating someone else. Is that what you think the issue is? Yeah, there's definitely a fear. And then there's also the idea that the company doesn't want to be perceived as a gay company. And so a lot of companies who were early to the Pride... sort of pride capitalism have since distanced themselves from pride because they were then perceived as being LGBTQ adjacent, which could alienate a straight male consumer and older consumer. Yeah. So there's all, there's all of those things to contend with and very few companies are willing to actually put their money where their mouths are and just say, fuck it, let's do it anyway. And yeah, you know, like I think. And I have to say, I'm completely biased. This is a Nike household. I am a Nike family. Hell yeah. Hell yeah. This is a Nike podcast. I rock with that. I understand. But, you know, when they ran that Colin Kaepernick ad, I was like, of course they would, you know, and the work that they're doing with Nike women and including like, including all types of women in their marketing and understanding that Nike women is not just about a limited definition of a woman and understanding that.

pride is not just about casting LGBTQ people and then casting them away, but it's like bringing athletes on contract and sponsoring them and showing up for them and introducing them to the press and like making it an integrated and organic part of your marketing efforts is like, it's just like, I, it is very rare that I get to see that kind of commitment to the work. And obviously Nike has. all of the resources to make those things happen. So I know it's hard for smaller companies. So like definitely want to acknowledge that, but I do think it is a good and sustained testament to, to doing the right kind of work. I mean, I, I honestly, with everything that's happening, I forget about the Kaepernick thing and how big of a deal that was. Like that's, that was a very insane big statement for them to make at the time. Yeah, it was. I, I, and also like, The biggest thing that I always tell companies is like, how many of these people who are so-called boycotting your products actually bought them in the first place? Because at Teen Vogue, when I fielded... like emails after we would publish like a nasty story about Nancy Reagan or like, you know, I would get, I got all of the hate mail because I, my, the webmaster at teenvogue.com email forwarded to my email account. And so I would get all of them and it was like, I'm unsubscribing. My daughters will never read your publication again. And so like a few times, like I would forward it to circulation, like consumer marketing and be like, Hey, did this person actually unsubscribe? And they were like, there's no subscription. available for this consumer so it's like how many of these people actually matter or like are just purely making noise on social media because they're fools you know so anyways that's actually good data to have though because like Under Armour can have them you know what I'm saying slow down let you wait is there a shot fire at Under Armour? UA is making a lot of strides to do better Chris are they? no no that was just I think they might be making strides to make better products, but it ain't going to work on me. Like Phillip, this is a Nike household. I agree. Do you know anything about Under Armour? They've tried a lot in different ways to be relevant. I think the only success they ever had was that Steph Curry shoe, the basketball shoe, and that didn't really last that long. They were a massive success. Under Armour, I think, is like...

top three shoe company in the world or i mean like like activewear company whatever yes no they definitely where i'm saying made strides to try to be cool is what i'm talking about no they're definitely you know what shout out to my fitness pal because that is an under armor owned app and that is my only experience with under armor that i have what does what is my fit i mean i've heard of it before but is it just like a data i am trying to You gain some mass as heterosexual men like to say, and how would, how would gay men say that? I'm trying to look hot in a speedo. I don't know. You're trying to, it's bulking season. It is bulking season in the summer. I'm doing it all backwards, I guess. I don't really even care. No one is seeing me except for my fiance, and he's whatever. We've been through it all, you know what I mean? And so I have to track how many grams of protein I have per day, and my fitness pal makes it very easy for me to do that. What's our protein goal for the day? 200 grams. Is this a clean bulk or a dirty bulk season for you? It is a clean bulk. Thank God. Thank God. We were going to have an intervention if you said it was a burger. How much of your protein is derived from food versus supplements? 60-40 right now. I'm still getting used to it. It's really hard. I've never eaten this much conscientiously in my life. As the person who's trying to look wispy at all times, the idea of bulking is very hard for me to wrap my mind around, but it's something that I hear about a lot from my friends. as as part of the workout process i love that you try to look wispy chris that's so um interesting well i've remembered can you say the word that you meant to say instead of interesting please i look i've romanticized the 90s and the heroin chic look and if i can't get it from heroin i'm gonna get it from running and not eating that much i guess i guess you're allowed to say that since you're like in recovery right yeah you're allowed to say i mean

I think that that era was just the chicest era. I think people look the best, unfortunately. That's what I like personally. The 90s really was something. Someone did a whole mood board of Aaliyah the other day, and I was just gagged. I was like, this all could come out today. If a pop star came out looking like this today, she would be on top of the world. And I think there are some trying to emulate, but it's not hitting the same. You know what I mean? I think Aaliyah is considered like a benchmark of style. You don't like the way Billie Eilish is dressing lately, Chris? I actually don't understand the Billie Eilish look, 100%. I think it's cute. I think nobody else is doing it. So I like that it's original. Like I appreciate it's also, I think a body image thing for her is like, look, I don't want to wear like skin tight clothes. Like that doesn't make me comfortable. I just don't think like all over print Gucci is for me. It doesn't, it doesn't have to do with the, it doesn't have to do with the fit even. She wears a lot of all over print Gucci. I've only seen her in like a lot of black hoodies. She'll wear, like, yeah, I feel like I can picture a look of her wearing, like, super oversized, like, Gucci print shirt and pants. She'll wear a lot of black hoodies, but they'll have, like, spray paint neon green dollar signs on them. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. Listen, to have a star who is that young and that big not be the cookie cutter pop girl is... So cool. I'm not a fan of the music. Personally, it's not my thing, but I fully am a fan of hers, if that makes any sense. I've come around on her. I think the music at some points is undeniably a hit. I'm not going to listen to it, but I think that as a role model and young person, I think she's like... pretty interesting i think it's very now more than ever you're able to separate those two things and like somebody the idea of somebody as a person without really enjoying their music i feel the same way about like tyler the creator for example you know i think he's a good person to have around but i don't really i don't hate his music but i don't listen to it either yeah no he's so handsome oh yeah yes he's very handsome tyler

He's very well-dressed, too. He's really grown into it. I've heard he has a man, though, so calm down. Oh, does he? Well, I have a man, too. And listen, don't tell me what to do with my body. Do we have an open relationship over there, Phil? I do not comment on sexual predilections, specifically not with heterosexual men. So if you have something you would like to reveal, then I would be happy to review more. As heterosexual men, I think we're a little bit fascinated with the prevalence of the open relationship. I don't have an open relationship, but my girlfriend has made a joke or two about it to the point where who knows? You know, I hate to tell you, that is always how it starts. Damn. Damn, that says a lot without saying enough. Yeah. Well, Jason also is going through it this week because his girlfriend is styling Adrian Brody, which is apparently a grail for her, if you will, a top three. So do you think he should be worried or do you think Adrian Brody is like a little washed these days? Adrian Brody. I don't think I would call him washed. There is something undeniably sexy about Adrian. I can't even put my finger on it. He doesn't fit any of the things that I normally would say that I'm attracted to in a man. He just is sexy. No, I agree. Yeah, I agree as well. I think sometimes it might be talent is part of it, I would say. which Jason has very little of, obviously. Adrian's going to win. Is this how you guys talk to each other all the time? Non-stop. Not all the time. Do you guys tell each other that you love each other? No, but I think we should, maybe. Do it now. I think we've said it before. We've absolutely said it before. Jason, I love you, Jason. I love you, Chris. Wow. Look at the growth. Wow, this is what we needed.

Well, what other celebrities do you like right now? I would love to talk celebs with you. What celebrities do I like right now? Oh, God. This is a hard-hitting pod, Phil. I thought Chromatica was a little overrated, to be honest. That is sacrilege. You cannot say that in front of the bank. I swear. I'm going to find out where you are in California, and I'm going to beat your scrawny ass. I honestly, I have been bulking. I will stand with you. I will sit on you. I honestly just said that to rile you up. I thought the record was pretty good, but I knew that there was a divisive way to get after you. Okay, the only celebrity I really want to talk about at this moment is Charlize Theron. Have you guys seen The Old Guard? No. Okay, that's also homophobic. So many things I'm learning about you today. Not only are you not gay, but you hate gay people. Okay, so Sardines Theron is in this movie called The Old Guard. It is the first comic book movie to ever be directed by a black woman, by the way. And The Old Guard is essentially like the premise is that she is part of a very small army of mercenaries who are immortals. And that is all I can tell you. I love Charlize Theron because she does her own stunts. I'm not sure if you've ever seen Mad Max, Fury Road, or if you've seen Atomic Blonde. Charlize Theron literally kicks ass herself. It is her doing it. She does her own weaponry. She does her own combat. I mean, the woman is incredible. She is incredible. incredible damn look no one no we're pro charlie's i really love that movie with her and seth rogan also she also she plays ugly really well for how beautiful of a person she is that's true that's real chops i would like the range the range that she has It's a tough sell to get us to watch a comic book inspired film. That's where I'm having a hard time. As much as we love female directors who are black. Doesn't sound like you love female directors enough. Look, I have four female actresses for that matter. No, do not go there. Do not go there. I love female actresses and I take offense to that. Whereas I personally, I never watch a film that has a female in it. It's fucking bullshit. Jason only watches all male movies. You just watched good porn. Yeah, I was about to say, Jason, I'm sure Phil has some titles he could recommend for you. Look, a woman can work on the film, but not in front of her.

front of the camera come on yeah we gotta draw the line somewhere uh is that where is that available to watch is that streaming on netflix oh okay well we love there it's there for the taking but you know i'm having a hard time watching i don't have a tv where i'm staying right now and i can't watch it on the laptop i'm too grown i hear that i really really hear that actually i can't do it so it's giving it's challenging but so that that's your number is that your number one quarantine entertainment pick Oh, I think so. I really really enjoyed it. By the way, Kiki Lane is also in it and she kicks ass in it too. She plays a Marine. There's a gay couple in it who, um, their powers are only activated when they are together. Um, and they kill a bunch of guards who make fun of them for being gay. Um, which was like a very redemptive moment. There's a Mark Zuckerberg character who dies a brutal death, which was extremely redemptive. Um, and yeah, just like really, there's a lot of, there's a lot of justice porn being sewed into this script. I think that's why I'm so into it, isn't it? I really felt like I couldn't go to bed after I watched it. I was too activated. The highlights you're telling me are appealing, I have to say. It's sounding pretty good so far. It's good. I have to be honest with you. I've never even heard of it until right now. I already forgot what it was called. The Old Guard. Thank you. Thank you. Now it's in there. Don't, don't erase gay culture. I, I just, I can't, there's so much stuff. I just feel like there's so much stuff to watch. You know what I mean? And all I want to watch is, is like videos in the daily mail of Johnny Depp and Amber Heard. I am absolutely transfixed with the shit that is going on with those two. I cannot get enough. Oh, wow. Yeah, you know what? I actually have not followed that storyline in a minute. Well, let me just say something to you. If you're going to force me to watch a Sir Lee's Thera and comic book movie, I'm going to say log on to the problematic Daily Mail and just do a little click and surf. I cannot give clicks to a Murdoch-owned enterprise, but I will refresh myself. I will say that I...

That whole thing is just a harrowing story, and I hope that Amber Heard is okay and that things are reaching whatever she needs to. And we hope that Johnny Depp is okay. That's what's coming out, though, is that they're both so wild. I think that's what's so crazy about it. She put a cigarette out on him and shit. It's really going there. Hey, some guys like that, Chris. Yeah, that's true. Right, and these things always get so complicated, too, because, like, what was, yeah, I mean, listen. Let's just say this. We don't condone physical violence of any kind, regardless of what partner in the relationship is perpetrating it, unless it is consensual. Okay, sure. So when Jason puts cigarettes out on me and I like it, that's fine. I think so. Okay, I just want to make sure. If it's fine for you, it's fine for me. Well, I prefer, yeah. I like it in a natural American spirit. I'm not really into it when it's like a menthol, but that's, I mean, that's fine. Wow, a specific brand name. Somehow I thought we were joking, but now I'm not joking. No, no, no. Phil, are you a cig smoker, Phil? I am not. No, I've never smoked a cigarette. Good for you. What are your vices then? Masturbation. Got it. Do you not drink? No, I do drink. Has jacking off increased? Has you moved to California or has it gone down? No. It's always a very steady flow. That's a very high-pitched no, by the way. Yeah, very high-paced. That was a soprano no. Back in the day, Phil, I worked with a brand called Tinga. Are you familiar with that product? I am very intimately familiar with Tinga. It's a pretty great product, right? I just wrote a story for GQ a couple of months ago about basically how people are horning online since quarantine. And Tinga sent me this gigantic box of products. It was so big, I was embarrassed. Send us the Tinga unboxing vid. I should have. Nothing is crazier than stuffing your dick into a Keith Haring-shaped shampoo bottle. Okay, so there is, okay, now that you took it there, there is a motorized Tenga that I would just say I was very skeptical about. It is worth every goddamn penny, my friend. Really? Yes, yes. I think it's maybe $200. I think male sex toys are underappreciated, and I think they're not represented enough in our culture.

Is that, that's a hill you want to die on? No, no, no, no, no. I don't want to die there. I'm just, you know, if we're, if we're talking about things being, you know, underrepresented, I want to stand up. Sure. It's not at the top of the priority list, but it's definitely up there for Chris. Yeah. It's something to think about. So you won't watch a movie directed by a black woman, but you will stand up for jack off toys. That is correct. I understand your value. I'm not going to allow you to get away with that clean audio, but I see what you're trying to do to me and I'm not going to fucking stand for it. Wow. Here he goes. I've gotten you riled up a couple of times, Chris. It doesn't take much. It doesn't take much. But the Tenga is an incredible product. I guess when I was working on it, it was a long time ago and it wasn't really in America yet because it was so big in Japan. It was like a multi-million dollar business in Japan. I believe it. Yeah, I actually think they shipped it from Japan. Well, Chris, since you have a relationship with them already, maybe it's about time we get them on as a podcast sponsor. You want me to share the love? That'd be a great podcast sponsor for us, I think. Should I have them sponsor my podcast about God? Yes. Are you talking about Unholier Than Thou? Yes, Unholier Than Thou. That could be brought to you by Tenga. Sounds kind of amazing. Do you have a sponsor now? Yes, we have. I mean, it's through Crooked Media. Crooked is a well-run machine. You know what I mean? John Leavitt does not mess around. So do you just lay tape and send it off and they do everything for you? Um, yeah, I mean, well, I have to do a lot of, you know, research with the producers and script writing, of course. But yeah, I mean, right now we can't go in any studios. So it's just it's all from home with some very intense audio equipment that I keep in my apartment now. Have you enjoyed the process so far? I have enjoyed the process. It's also been like uniquely challenging. It is very hard to be in a field where you consider yourself very talented and good at what you do and then go into a different format, i.e., you know, print magazine and digital media into audio and be like a novice. And so it has been humbling and refreshing and challenging. Also frustrating, you know, like COVID delayed the launch of the podcast. This thing was supposed to launch in March, you know, and it just was like never the right time.

And so anyways, I'm glad that it's out in the world. I'm glad that it's like podcasting is such a nimble format that you can continue to pivot. So I'm glad that we like are able to just like continue to experiment. And that was just not something that I ever felt in digital media, to be honest. So that was nice. Yeah, it seems like on your podcast, you do a good job of kind of having like that writer's narrative, like the written word kind of scripted and then turned into an audio format. So I think you do a good job with it so far. Well, thank you so much. I'm glad that you're listening. How long is it going to go on? Is it like an episodic? Do you have a deal for a certain amount or are you just going to do it until the wheels fall off? I believe we're doing it until the wheels fall off or until I fall out of favor with Crooked Media. So whichever happens first. Well, you'll fall out of favor. I'm sure you'll do something. On the show, you talk a lot about... apocalypses. Do you, do you have a little bit of a fascination with the apocalypse? I don't, I don't, I never thought the world was ending. I always thought it was a lot of bullshit and that we kind of needed to like, as Cher once said, snap out of it. But I think that a lot of people are talking about the end of the world, like, because you know, this terrible thing has finally happened to America. It must be the end of the world kind of a thing. And I just always found that to be, um, a little maybe misguided and i kind of wanted to point people in the right direction but it is i will say the evidence for the apocalypse between like the plague of locusts and the bubonic plague and this pandemic is is and trump is pretty compelling so i just wanted to talk to some scholars about it and what they thought about it it's plausible i i've always had a little bit of a fascination with i i thought it would be cool for if whenever the world ends for it to happen when i was alive just so i could see it i guess that's a little selfish Yeah, TJ gets a little dark, you know. He's a dark guy. At a certain point, our Earth is going to die and everyone on it will die. You know, that's the true grand finale. All right. Wow, that was...

Great. If I'm at Erewhon still waiting on my order and the world ends, I guess I'll be happy. I want to be old. I want to have lived my full life before everyone else perishes. You want the apocalypse to happen on your terms. That's exactly right. The world literally revolves around you. I'm saying if you thought this Charlize Theron movie was good, wait until you check out the full end of the world. IRL. I guess there's no sequel to that. That's true. Not yet. You were raised Catholic? I was. Like strict strict or like culturally? It's hard to put strict Catholicism because my dad was like very dogmatic, but like it's not like we were in church every day. Do you know what I mean? It was like we were expected to go to church with him every Sunday. Oftentimes I would be able to get out of it by like crying. telling my mom that I hated my dad or whatever. But like, you know, we would, I, one time I remember my little brother and I were swearing. Like we had just kind of learned how to say, how to use fucking like as a word, like fucking everything. Right. And like, those were the days eight. And he, that means he was six, maybe five. And my dad like fully sat us down and showed us a clip of the exorcist. It was like, when you swear, the devil is inside of you. And so I'm watching this little girl's head spin around on her, on its neck. And I was like, Oh, shit. Damn. Yeah, my dad deeply, deep, did some deep damage. Jesus. Yeah. Well, what is your relationship with him now? Oh, wonderful. Best it's ever been. My dad is actually getting his master's degree in spirituality right now. And so he is on a whole trip about... Full 180. Yeah, he's really trying to figure out the areas in his life where he feels like he failed as a man and how getting himself closer to understanding his spirituality and abandoning a lot of the more dogmatic elements of the patriarchal church can help him feel more liberated. Was there something that happened to make this click for him or was it just a gradual thing that happened over time?

Yeah, no, I think it's definitely about him being a grandfather, you know, you know, you often hear like there's this amazing bell hooks book that I, I'm not even kidding. I really do hope you guys both read it. It's called the will to change and it's about men. And, you know, one of the things she says in the book is that oftentimes men are only allowed to be liberated from. from basically these ideas of masculinity and these ideals when it's too late, like when they're ready to retire or when they they're old and they've had a chance to look back on their life or after a tragic event. And I, and it's funny. Yeah. And I, and I do see it with my dad. Like I remember, you know, he called me like after one of my other promotions and my media career and he called me and he was like, how is your, like, how is your partner? How was Darian doing with all of this? Are you, are you there for him? Are you making sure that you guys are taking care of each other? And I was like, why are you asking me these questions? It is so weird. It was so unlike him. And he was just like, because I made a lot of mistakes when I was raising you and I should have been around more. And if I could take it all back, I would. I would do anything to have more time with you. And it is very liberating, especially as a gay kid growing up with a very stereotypically masculine Tony Soprano kind of dad. I can't tell you the kinds of healing that I've been able to do as a man because my dad was willing and able to say those things to me. So I'm very supportive of this journey. And he's also supportive of mine. And we still butt heads all the time. Like, trust me. Damn, that's a great story, though. I feel like that is rare, you know, that it turns around. It is very rare. And it shouldn't be rare, right? And so we have to be the generation of men that changes that. I mean, I think even, I mean. Already ahead of you. My dad and I are fairly close, but he's definitely he's definitely like just the mind is more open. Let me say that. And I think that's great. But I might be responsible for that in a subconscious way, too. You know what I mean? Just because of what you expose your parents to. It's like not something they would be exposed to otherwise. You know, just culturally, obviously, like when you came out, was it a big issue?

It was an issue. It was never, like I say, lots of kids lose their homes and they lose their financial stability after that. No, there was none of that for me. I was never worried about that, in fact. But it was emotional warfare, for sure. My mom wasn't speaking to me for a little bit. And I had to see a Catholic therapist and agree to attend church with my dad and enroll in Catholic classes. How old were you? I was 14. That's pretty early, right? It's actually the median age of coming out for LGBTQ youth now. But at the time, I was the only 14-year-old gay person who I knew. And when I would go to a large high school with about 2,000 students, I would be the only out gay student in the school. Yeah, I wonder what the – I don't think – at my high school, which is probably around the same – I mean, it was in the South. I grew up in Atlanta. I don't – there was not an out gay student at my high school that I can remember. Right. Which I feel like that is not the case almost anywhere now. Or am I wrong? No, I mean, I hope you're right. And so many kids are more emboldened and it's certainly easier to have the conversation about gayness now. I think we have hard work to do around the acceptance of trans and non-binary youth and how we support them. And also the youth who don't fall so neatly into one category of gay or straight, but like who may identify as queer or pure and sexual or bisexual or however, and have a hard time articulating that or having that understood by their families or loved ones. I mean, I do think I do think some of that stuff, the concepts are very difficult for like, you know, 50 year old white man to understand. You know what I mean? And it might not even come from a bad place. It's just like, I don't get it, you know, and that's I don't think the lack of understanding ever. I mean. I shouldn't say ever. It rarely comes from a bad place. It comes from a place of fear. And that was certainly what I had to tackle with my parents. Their exposure to gay people was their close friend who was from their childhood who was sent away to a conversion therapy camp and was electrocuted as a way to cure him. That was their exposure to homosexuality. And my dad has a gay brother who was...

You know, anyways, I don't want to air his business, but he was not well created by his own mother. And so there was this feeling that their son was going to be killed or was going to be hurt or was not going to have a quote unquote normal life. And I think what a lot of parents and even siblings, because I have four siblings and really none of them understood. how to be supportive in this moment. And I didn't have the wherewithal as a 14 year old to tell them how to support me. Right. But the right thing that you need to understand that everyone listening needs to understand is that if you have people at home who love you, you can make it. That's what the statistics show time and time again, you can get, like we were saying to bring it all the way back to the beginning of this conversation, you could be bullied in school, but if you go home and you know, you are affirmed and loved for who you are by your parents, by your family unit. kids are going to be, for the most part, okay. That is exactly my experience. That's exactly my experience. Or have a very strong group of friends as well, perhaps? Yeah, support networks in general. How we define family, of course, especially as queer people, is expansive. So we support and affirm our chosen families and our chosen support networks, too. Why? I just... I personally want to understand more about the stuff that's happening with the trans community, the black trans community and why it's so difficult. Like, I just I guess it just seems something that people are talking about quite a lot right now. And and they seem like you said, they seem to have a harder time than a lot of other communities. And I just I want to understand why historically why that's happening. Oh, gosh. I mean, how much time do you have? No, no, I'm sorry. No, no, I know. Give me the cliff notes, but it's something that I have an understanding of, I think, but I'm sure I could learn more. Well, no, I really appreciate the question. I also definitely would encourage you guys to invite a black trans person onto the show. We have been looking into it. My DMs have gone unanswered. So if you have any plugs, let me know. I have tons for you. Okay, great. We'd love to. We'd love to. So, I mean, I think one of the things that we have to understand, you know, is that.

I can talk about my experience as a white gay person and my experiences are different than that or maybe different than that of a black gay person, for example. And that's because of what we tend to all now know because of the Black Lives Matter movement, which is that people are treated differently based on the color of their skin. And that applies everywhere from economic inequalities to opportunities to how people are treated by law enforcement and our judicial system. So when you are a black woman, you are. automatically you are treated not just about you were treated not just differently because of the color of your skin but also because of your gender right we know that black women are paid less to the dollar than white women who are paid less to the dollar than white men So keeping all of that in mind, what I'm trying to illustrate is that there are compounded forms of violence that affect you the more that your identities tend to intersect. So I'm a white gay man. So theoretically, you guys, I'm like one seat away from the seat of power in America, right? And a black gay man is maybe a seat away from me. When we talk about women and we talk about transgender folks. We're talking about these compounding areas of violence that are systemic and then they're also personal. And so there's this great kind of framework that my friend, the activist Raquel Willis... published when I was the editor-in-chief of Out, and it's called How to End the Epidemic of Violence Against Black Trans Women. Because last year, in 2019, the American Medical Association actually declared an epidemic, an official epidemic of violence against black trans women because of the sheer amount of murders that were happening of black trans women across the United States. And it's complicated to explain. why you know violence happens because it has to do with everything from you know the criminalization of poverty to how we police people who don't fit into our perceived ideals of gender norms what it means if you if you look quote unquote obviously trans or you quote unquote do not pass and who is going to harm you for walking down the street

to who is not going to accept you for a job because you don't, quote unquote, look professional. Because in their eyes, if you don't fit the perceived gender norms, you're not a suitable job candidate, right? And so the systemic violence, it has so many roots and they're all so tangled. And the only way... we really get to climb ourselves out of it is if we can acknowledge how to help at all of these different levels. How do we support organizations like the Ochre Project, which provide food stability so that there's food on someone's plate so that they can do their work? How do we support Kayan Dorshaw of Glitz, right? So that we can support sex workers to make sure that we are not just fighting to decriminalize sex work because many people end up in sex work and many people do sex work and they shouldn't be punished for doing that work and making that money. in a system especially that makes it impossible for people to make money and find opportunity otherwise, right? And also Glitz is working to provide housing right now for black trans people who were just released from Rikers Island, right? We need to abolish the prison industrial complex because... Black trans women are dying, and sometimes they're dying in men's prisons. And if they're not dying in men's prisons, they are like Lailene Polanco, who died in solitary confinement because the prison guards thought that she was a threat to the security of the other women inmates at Rikers Island purely because she was a trans woman, right? We have to talk about abolishing the police because abolishing the police means that we abolish also the people who are enforcing these outdated laws that essentially make it to be... criminal to be trans. And then we have to talk about economic opportunity, right? And how we build people up and how we effectively allow people to be more economically autonomous. You know, it goes all the way to the Supreme Court. It goes to the battle we just fought and Chase Strangio, a trans man, just won that case at the Supreme Court. That employment discrimination, especially against trans people, is outlawed. And that was a huge win for our community. But really, like, this fight is so multi-pronged and we need more people to be asking the questions, finding their own answers, donating out of their own pockets, and considering this an issue that directly affects them.

If black trans people are not liberated, then no one in our community, no one in our world is liberated. Shit. Okay. Well, that was the answer. Very well put, Philip. Yeah, that was the answer I needed. That explained it about as, I mean, you know, piecing that together on Twitter is not going to be as easy for me. So asking directly seemed like the right move. Sure. No, and I understand there. I get asked this question. Sorry for the background noise. I get asked this question a lot by white gay men who don't know where to start. And so, you know, it's, it's great to be having this conversation with people who are outside of the community. And, you know, I hope it is the beginning of many, many conversations and also many charitable contributions that we could all be making. For sure. For sure. Okay. Well, I think, I think we covered it all. All right, Phillip, you know, squirrel jam has mold on it and that's about it. We forgot to talk about Squirrel, but I feel like you don't really care about that that much. I've been once, and I was so excited to get the jam, and now I'm reading about its mold. So, yeah, disappointing. It's a disappointing cap to my LA experience. It's okay. You're not missing that much. Well, Phillip, thank you so much. I saw you tweeting about needing help with a bicycle, and I can help you out with that offline if you still need any assistance with that. I love that. Thank you so much. I would love any help with bicycles. And I encourage you to watch The Old Guard on Netflix. Absolutely will. As soon as my girlfriend is done with Nurse Jackie reruns, we're going to get right to that. Are you on the street team, Phil? What's going on? Honestly, I love Charlize Theron. Charlize Theron could probably top me. It's like a whole identity crisis version of Charlize Theron right now. Tell people where they can find you on the World Wide Web. Y'all can find me at PSPicardi on Twitter and Instagram, and you can find Unholier Than Now wherever you listen to podcasts. Great. Thanks, Phil. We'll talk to you soon, man. Thank you, guys. Thank you. Bye-bye.