038. - Jack Wagner

All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian. And they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world. And they do it three times a week. Jason, does that sound familiar to you? We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place. All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcast. or watch on YouTube. Want to make a podcast? Spotify's got a platform that lets you make one super easily, then distribute it everywhere, and even earn money. We like that. All in one place for totally free. It's called Spotify for Podcasters. And here's how it works. Spotify for podcasters lets you record and edit podcasts right from your cellular telephone or your computer. So no matter what your setup is like, you can start creating today. Then you can distribute your podcast to Spotify and everywhere else, those other places that podcasts are heard. Video podcasts are also available on Spotify. And when you want to take conversations with your fans to the next level, Q&As and polls are the best way to get them talking. With Spotify for podcasters, you can earn money in a variety of ways, including ads and... and podcast subscriptions. And best of all, it's totally free. Zero catch. We've been using it ever since we started How Long Gone. And ever since I discovered Spotify for Podcasters, I feel like having the option of turning off the Q&As and the polls on the user dashboard has really helped boost my creativity and take it to another level. I highly recommend giving it a try. Download the Spotify for Podcasters app or go to www.spotify.com slash podcasters to get started.

Hello, Chris. Damn, man, this fake-ass mountain time got your boy fucked up. So are you on mountain time right now? Yeah, Nashville, Tennessee is mountain time. I'm glad that we were able to scramble the jets and still make it happen. You know, Jason, I prioritize work, unlike some people, so it's pretty easy for me to make time for you. Dude, thank you. So you're in Nashville, Tennessee. What are you doing there? Well, my friend Evan is a manager at a hotel called the Dive Motel, which has a pool. And he kindly offered me a penthouse. So I'm in a classic American roadside motel reimagined for 2020. With an excellent pool at my disposal, but the sun finally came out right now. I might actually do this podcast poolside. Would that be okay with you? Yeah, that's fine. This can be an audio nightmare because... Yeah, what's going on? Why don't you tell people what's going on with you? There's a little construction going on at my house. This week. And there will be some loud noises. Unfortunately. So please bear with us. As Chris is poolside. And you hear the sound of sawing wood. And jackhammers here. Let's not act like your house flooded. You're doing some renovating. You're doing some upgrades. Yeah. A couple months ago. My girlfriend decided to remodel the kitchen. and uh and demolition day began yesterday you know so there's no good time to remodel your kitchen ever that i'm learning right now that's true and as we tackle white privilege on this podcast i i would just like to say that we are both shine we are both what say that again hello you hear me No, I lost you for a second. You said we are both shining examples of... White privilege. Right, right, right. Yes, my Asian girlfriend is remodeling her kitchen and I also live here. I also live here. No, no, no. But, you know, it is a thing that is happening and, you know.

What are you going to do? What are you going to do? She planned it a long time ago and all the stuff arrived and the tile and the dirt and the cement and the drywall and all that shit. And now I got five guys in the house blasting cigs. I'm surprised you're not as a known... handyman adjacent guy i'm surprised you're not just chipping in for the for the love of the game you know i i did my part in the pre-production but what is going on now does not you know it's it's well above out of tj's peg rate it's it's so fucking you know i i thought i was mr get bad with a with a screwdriver until until these guys showed up i mean they showed up at 8 a.m and by 11 a.m a full kitchen was just four walls. I love that. I would like to get in the demo process. I always see on... One of your house flipping shows that you watch when the depression sets in? How's the protest front in Tennessee looking? I think they might be over. I haven't heard about or seen anything. There were a few I know before I got there. Before I got here, I heard from some people. They were pretty well attended. I mean, I think that the South in general, although it's the most fucked up, it's also one of the more active. You know, it's not New York or L.A., obviously, but it's pretty serious. More active than Anchorage? Well, somewhere like Nashville and Atlanta, obviously. Charleston might be the exception to that rule. But, you know, overall. Charleston is the one bad apple of the South. We've declared that. That's what they call me. Yeah, I went to some protests over the weekend in good old Glendale. It was pretty heavy. Really? Glad I went. Heavy as far as tone goes or heavily attended? I guess both. But it was very much similar to kind of... It really reminded me of just...

Just Twitter in real life is what it is. There are mostly a bunch of good people all joining together and fighting for a better world. And there are some religious trolls with megaphones. There are cops that are kind of standing around laughing at everyone. It's exactly everything that you see online just right there in front of you. But being around thousands of people that are all kneeling together at the same time, not a single word. The only thing that you hear is the humming of a drone above you that some fucking bro is going to upload to his Facebook. Either that or the government is controlling that drone. Hopefully not the latter. I participated in one of the you laid out for the full eight minutes and a half seconds. It is heavy. There's no other way to describe it. It really hammers it home in a way that I didn't realize that would be so powerful. Let me put it that way. I was also proud of Glendale. The Armenian Brothers of Glendale really stepping up. It was great to see. They pulled up in the four-door benzes, vaped, and just went to the protest. Well, there were a lot of posts on social media about, like, bro, come to Glendale and try looting here and see what happens. That type of gangster mentality. going on but it was everything was the exact opposite of that it was you know a really really great to see like the current young generation of people just no i really do normal having a heart it's great i i really do think this is is um uh unifying in a lot of ways for people who are on the right side of it um Which is probably the only, you know, besides the change that is happening and hopefully will continue to happen. I think that's the only silver lining to something like this. True. Growing pains. You know, but yeah. You know, I don't know. I've talked to some people. I feel like things are feeling a little more positive. Yeah, we can get into it when we start our pod with our guests. But there are, you know, there have been.

a decent amount of, you know, kind of tiny victories, if you want to call them that, of what has been going on so far. And also, you know, these things that have solidified any doubts that somebody might have in keeping up with the pressure of protesting and making sure that every day everyone is sharing as much information as possible. And, you know, some small things here and there are starting to happen. Hopefully that becomes contagious. When stuff works, it feels good to keep doing it. Damn, bro. We've got to get you onto some of these decks I'm working on because you really know how to distill down the economy of word. When I think of drugs, you're a great example. Once it's working, you're like, yeah, let's keep doing this. What could go wrong? Our guest today... is is jack wagner um well known uh from his work on the internet um he's a very bright guy who really makes me chuckle i'm like a big fan of his actually um you better be cool bro i could go through many of his greatest hits uh off the dome um but i think my personal favorite a long it feels so long ago but the silver lake whole foods 365 It was really a special moment, a simpler time. That was also, head and shoulders, my favorite bit of internet tomfoolery. What would you call that? A saboteur? Yes, a saboteur. I think Jack looks at things in a very interesting way. He likes to dig deep, which I appreciate, because I'm more of a surface-level guy. So I need to lean on guys like him to give me the real tea, because they've put in the work. Yeah, he has a penchant for exposing things and people and situations that may be of a bygone era, talking to members of the new metal band Trapped.

about i don't remember why but they were probably saying some fucked up shit online about something racist or bad or something but you know he'll get these people on the phone and talk to them or or jacob wall known um you know weird trump supporter guy who is a child in orange county who tries to get democrats canceled online with fake news stories and all kinds of crazy shit. And he will get these people on who are very fascinating and most people might never want to hear from. But, you know, it's good to overturn that stone sometimes. He's also the host of a podcast called Yeah, But Still with our old friend, Brandon Wardell, who we'll get on here one of these days. And they've been doing that show for a few years, and I helped them out when they were getting started. And I've podcasted with them before and vice versa. So it's good to have an old pod bro on. Love a pod bro professional. All right. Let's give them a call. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Squarespace. Obviously, Jason, you and I spend a lot of time on the World Wide Web, so do all our peers, our listeners, our friends, our colleagues, maybe even your parents if they're freaky. And if you're doing anything in the world, writing, taking pictures. I do topless boxing. You need a website. Exactly, a website that works, that does what it's supposed to do, that allows you to be creative but also business-minded. Jason, there's one place to go for that, Squarespace. Yeah, Chris, I'm over here. I'm modifying calculators and putting Claude inside of them so you could cheat at school. And I just want a place where I could, you know, have everything all in one place. I can have the SEO tools so those future graduates can find me. And, you know, I'm able to accept, quote unquote, donations for my services that might be gray area.

You know what I mean? And then email campaigns. Hey, I got a new 2.3 version upgrade. Boom, boom, boom. Get the analytics going. Raise some money. Show your investor all of your cool analytics of what's going on. They're going to want to get in early. And we can use Blueprint AI to make your website look as professional as your competition, if not more. So head to squarespace.com slash howlong for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use offer code howlong to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by a new podcast from The Guardian stateside with Kai and Carter. This is covering a lot of our bases, Jason. It's trying to slow down. the news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's happening in the world and i know you particularly have quite a lot of questions a lot of questions but how often because we do this podcast three times a week and that's a sweet spot how many times do they do three times a week and i i have a feeling just based on the platform and these talking points that they're maybe going to be covering different stuff than we do that's just a guess the guardian is not some billionaire owned They're not afraid to say what they want to say, brother. Yeah, Rupert ain't sniffing around in what journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman are up to over there at Stateside. But yeah, listen wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch it on YouTube. It's three times a week. And who couldn't use more news? You know, especially when it's not, you know, from here, let's say. Give it a listen. Give it a listen. All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Quince. Jason, the temps are warming up. It's getting hot out there. Summer always changes how I get dressed. I need pieces that feel lighter, more breathable, and they're just easy, but still put together. I don't want to look like a slob. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high-quality essentials that feel and look amazing. Breathable linen and soft organic cottons. Well-made basics, but without the luxury markups. That rare balance where everything feels elevated.

but still effortless. Yeah, Chris, linen season is here. I wore a linen blazer to dinner a few nights ago in the warm California sun. But, you know, you got that Italy trip coming up this summer and quality European linen pants and shirts. Upgrade that look starting at just $34. You know, if you get a nice linen suit, a little t-shirt underneath it, some chill shoes, you're looking good, but you're staying cool. The inside of your special areas are nice and dry as you turn up with your besties. So elevate that summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com slash how long for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns, even on a nice holiday now available in Canada. That is Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash how long. That'll get you free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince punto com slash how long. And we're back. Back Wagner. What's good, buddy? What is going on, fellas? How are you? I'm good. Feeling pretty good. Vibing out here. Dave, I don't know. Dude, I have a calendar at my house that... I originally was keeping track of the days we were in quarantine, but it's been several months since I've put a red X on that calendar. I can't believe how long it's been. Honestly, though, I've been telling Jason this because as I've been driving south, the COVID thing becomes less and less apparent as the further south you get. Which might not surprise you. Oh, no. Yeah, it doesn't surprise me at all. And it also becomes less and less apparent in the world in general with every day that passes. At least it seems like that to me. It feels canceled. Yeah. Dude, not to break the fourth wall, but I might hold my mic. Before this, I know I'm kind of like revealing the backstage, but I can't podcast without holding a mic. And you guys told me, you know. Please hold the mic. So you're going to, oh, you're just going to, I see you need it. I'm holding the mic, yeah. Like I can't, I feel like it's weird to be podcasting without even touching the mic. You're like a comedian fondling his stool. You need it for your act.

I kind of like skiing when you don't use poles. It's sort of like you don't really need the poles. At a certain point, you're just kind of used to holding them. That's how I'm feeling right now. I feel naked right now without a mic. That's fine. Even though you can't see me, I want your listeners to know that I am holding a mic that is not going to be plugged in. Normally, I don't like the fourth wall being broken down, but I'm glad you did for that remark. Yeah, sure. It also paints a scene. It humanizes you as a podcaster, Jack. That's true. I mean, I was shocked. I offered you a mic feed and you were like, get that fucking shit away from me, dude. You elite yuppie. That's us. This is a FaceTime pod. We're a little more punk and we don't do any of that type of highfalutin processing going on. We're super lo-fi. We haven't done an episode yet. It's really not as much about... It's a collection of short stories that is available for purchase. Yeah. So Jack, we in the last few weeks have pivoted our podcast subject matter a decent amount. Have you guys been doing the same for yours? Your podcast, yeah, but still is already a little bit more politically active than ours was. It's funny, weird. Me and Brandon were just debating that. We haven't decided what the right thing to do is. I think we're both just trying to figure out how to get things right. We did one episode last week where it's like, It was just a Patreon episode. We did talk about it, but it was just us. It's weird because our audience is pretty well-educated and fairly woke. I would feel weird. I could probably teach people some things, teach the average American some things, but it would still feel weird to be this white guy, idiot.

lecturing the audience on systematic racism. I'm still learning so much all the time, but at the same time, it would be weird. We've been really conscious and maybe overly conscious of not wanting to hit up our black friends to come on and talk about it. I don't know. We were just debating it an hour ago. We don't know the... Yeah, I mean, obviously, you don't want to just go on and lecture people about systematic racism. And you also probably don't want to just continue on business as normal, as if nothing was going on in the world, because then that would be kind of insane. But you have to kind of find somewhere in the middle. Yeah, a little bit. I want to note, systematic racism should be discussed. I was mostly just saying that I'm not the professor for that. I'm not good enough. Neither is Brandon Wardell. Nobody's looking to Brandon Wardell as like, oh yeah, I want to hear what Brandon and Jack has. I think what your listeners might get out of, even though you have a woke audience. There are probably always fans of everything that are less woke and could use a great example of white people having a conversation with people of color and it being a normal thing versus like, hey, we're going to have a black person on and we're going to ask them a bunch of questions about how to be better than white people. We're trying to do it. We just need to do it the right way. We're hyper-conscious of not wanting to hit up. I mean, well, also because we have a Patreon. So honestly, that's mainly the issue because we've been recording new Patreon episodes, which is like inherently monetized. So it's just like it's funky. But I think, you know, I think we want to do something very soon. We just can figure out the right way to do it. It is a little tricky. And you can go back and forth in your thought of, you know, what.

what the move is but you know the the best way i've found is to just start going and dip your toe in the jacuzzi and make a few mistakes and people will i mean we we obviously suggestions we obviously had that discussion because this podcast is not politically charged at all um so it was a it was a pretty serious discussion for us and i think it was more just like well we i i would rather talk about this than not talk about it and have people that can teach us on the podcast because The 25-year-old white bros that listen to this might want to hear it. They need to hear it somewhere, so why not hear it from us? It's kind of the outlook we took. But I agree. I think that was my fear and maybe Jason's fear as well. It's like, who am I? I'm a fucking upper-middle-class white guy. No one wants to hear it from my ass. Yeah, that's how I'm hyper-conscious of that, maybe too conscious, where it's like, I don't want to be preachy myself. I want to be very clear. That's not to say that things shouldn't be preached and like militantly changed. Right. Like, but it's like weird. There's like a certain tone that I think we're seeing a lot of backlash from just like, you know, like I've seen a lot of white women get in trouble where it's like talk like, you know, they're saying shit like you need to educate yourself and like you're putting books and shit like people like. Kind of like preaching in a tone, as a white person, like, you're not a part of it, right? Like, I know I'm a part of it. So I'm not going to get super preachy and, like, give out reading materials to my audience when, like, I need them too, you know? I haven't read these yet, but you guys should read them. No, I've seen that all the time. It's so weird. Like, my feed of, like, all my white friends, it's just, like, so many fucking books. And it's like... You guys are all just recommending books to each other that you're not going to read. It's a weird type of virtue. It's clear they're not going to read them. I think everybody means well. I'm sure there are some people that are being expedient, but it is strange. Maybe it's just the symptom of a big boom, where everybody's just sharing links and stuff.

Part of me, it feels like maybe my Instagram story feed is like just 10,000 links being shared for donations. And I wonder like, man, I hope people are donating to these, not just sharing the links, you know? Yeah, no, I mean, I do. Well, I think that's true. I mean, I think it's like, to me, the rule of thumb should be once you donate, then you're able to share the link is a way of thinking. But I mean, I guess, you know, unless you have a lot of followers. yeah yeah like a lot of followers in my mind i think it's also just like everything helps right now more than hurts absolutely um i mean i've been there's been a lot of backlash coming right now and i've enjoyed it you know especially like you're seeing it with like the girl boss types um and like it's it's kind of uh yeah i've seen some some this is the end of girl bosses yeah well it's The cool thing to me is that like, you know, we'll see like some hype. I mean, there's been so many girl boss types. I couldn't even name one of them that got canceled. There's been so many, but like they'll post some bullshit, you know, like, like a book they haven't read. And then like, and then it'll be like one black girl that used to work for them in the comments, just being like, Hey, fuck you. Like, you know, you do this to me. And then like that became, that becomes like a huge thing. And I get excited when I see stuff like that because it's a power shift that the internet's supposed to do. It doesn't always do it, but it's like, oh. You're seeing some real justice. Well, this is one of the first times I think the internet has actually, in a mass way, been kind of good. Or at least striving for something good versus like... you know, just bullshit coming from every angle. So I think that's why we're seeing it. It feels so powerful because it's like actually harnessed for good. Yeah. Yeah. And we're realizing that nobody is really safe at all. Absolutely. So I guess to round that all out, like we do, we're going to do something on the podcast about it. We've already talked about it once, but it's weird also because.

Another thing is that everything's changing by the day. If we put out some episode based on today, it might be useless tomorrow. You need to have a more evergreen attitude towards your content, my friend. Well, that's true, but the way the protest is moving. We talked about it on an episode. uh that was recorded like may 30th or something and the episode didn't come out till yesterday and it was funny listening back i was like oh dude like we had no idea what was gonna happen you know right and that was that was all of a week ago yeah yeah shit has moved very quickly yeah i no i mean i i i i agree i mean it's it's moved in a Like I said earlier, it's moved in the right direction at least. There's been some small victories and things have kind of become more focused, I feel like. But yes, it is a breakneck pace out there. I think it has to be. I agree. Jack, what are your thoughts on the end game? Where do you see this going? Not in a final way, but what the result will be or hopefully will be. I mean, I'm pretty cynical with, like, the reaction. Like, I'm cynical in my faith in government. I mean, everybody should be. But, I mean, I'm not cynical in the power of these protests. Like, I think one thing that I'm just glad to see is that, you know, nobody's out there looking for our elected officials to do anything, really. Like, nobody in the streets is thinking, like, oh, Nancy Pelosi's going to fix this because she's a good lady. Everybody out there is like, fuck all of you. Fuck all of you. You're all going to have to equally change this or we're not going away. I hope that attitude and sentiment continues. I guess where I'd like to see it versus where I think it'll actually go. Was that the question? I think that it's tough for people to

what will what will satiate people like you know what i mean like people are are more um you know just just really feeling i think bonded together over a cause and that's why this is working and that's why it's not going the way but what what will like what i guess like these small victories aren't enough like so what do you think something big could be we're never gonna have a full utopian society in our life but what is what is something that could happen where everyone would be like oh shit this is like we can maybe go back to being somewhat of a normal society for a little while well i mean i think there's like two big conversations happening right like with the police or the police in america um i would hope i would hope that there's like some chipping away at the militarization i mean it's pretty recent that they'd be they turned into like this weird militia, you know? Um, yeah. And I mean, we're also years probably. Yeah. And I mean, where I would like to see, I would like to see it like no longer be like, I would like law enforcement to be like an irrelevant phrase. Basically. I don't want them out there enforcing things. Like when I hear the word enforce, I think of an enforcer on, uh, like a hockey team, you know? And it's like that's how they treat situations, you know. A lot of other countries aren't that way. You know, you could – I mean, there's supposed to be peace officers. And when you see – I don't know. I'm just like – I'm still kind of processing it. But even aside from – oh, wow. What's that? Somebody doing some sawing in there? Yeah. My house is under construction right now. Oh, boy. Sorry about that. No, it's all good. I was just like, whoa, what is that? What was I going to say? You got excited by the saw, didn't you? I know. You're a handyman. Yeah. Oh, law enforcement. Yeah, I mean, it's just weird. There's very few situations where a police officer should be literally doing an MMA-style choke move on the ground to a citizen of this country.

And it's strange that we've all gotten used to that being acceptable at all. I mean, there's, like, we should hopefully change the, at the least change, like, the way people perceive the police, the reasons they should exist, rather, is to, you know, protect people and not just be, like, you know, a force, like, literally attacking us and fighting us on the streets. And by us, I guess I mean the citizens. But even though I'm rarely a victim of the police, you know, I'm like, oh, it's almost impossible. You know, it probably won't ever happen, really, in my lifetime. I heard somebody say something really interesting that struck me, at least. It was basically like, I was a drug addict for so long, and all of my friends that were black that were drug addicts had been to jail, and I thought I was just lucky. But then I realized that I just never got arrested because I'm white. I was doing the same things they were doing, but no one ever stopped and frisked me or pulled me over for no reason. So I was able to continue on without any jail time, which really, I mean, that hit home for me, of course, but it also just puts it all into perspective in a pretty simple way. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of problems going on. I mean, there's a lot of things going on right now. I also think like. You know, there's a very much like an unofficial just reckoning with racism right now that is going on. I mean, we all know it like unofficial, unofficial. You mean like internally or you mean like online with influencers and shit? Well, I mean, like the protests officially are because of George Floyd. Right. Yes. Even though it's much, much more than that. And like, I'd say like it's unofficial because there wasn't like a situation. I mean, George Floyd. It has to do with racism, but now we're kind of seeing the girl bosses being called out. That doesn't directly have to do with George Floyd and the police, but it's like everything's cracked wide open right now, and we're finally having a very direct conversation about racism. Editors of magazines are being pushed out and fired. It's good. It makes me smile. It does. But yeah, there is a reckoning absolutely going on.

And, you know, people are kind of seeing that starting off with the police brutality and racism and having it trickle down to canceling anyone and everyone that has done us wrong, you know, from Virgil Abloh to, you know, everyone. Yeah, the person who runs Reformation. I mean, I obviously get excited when I see people who, like, deserve it, you know. And for the most part, these people. They're getting canceled. They're not really over, sadly, even if they should. It's not super easy to get rid of some of these freaks. These freaks are a tenacious bunch, and they will come back. I mean, I think that the foot is on the neck right now, for sure. And I think that it's... Yeah, it's affecting everything. You know what I mean? It really is affecting everything, at least in our world specifically. Like, I don't know how it's affecting things to, like, my parents' world. You know what I mean? Well, I think it's on all of us to be – you know, our fight is with our parents, really, and everybody around us. Our fight as white people, so to speak. Like, that's the first people we could take on because it's like – To me, there's no more compromise with like, oh, that's just, you know, grandpa just, you know, he says that. Like, oh, Uncle Rick is just like that. It's like, I mean, at least for me, it's like, dude, I don't give a shit if they're like that. Like, they need to leave or I'm leaving. Like, that's not happening anymore. That's one of the more interesting things I've seen on TikTok. Actually, I've seen the kids fighting. kids fighting with their parents they just leave tiktok open and their dad is like yelling at them from the other room they're like fuck you dad you're racist it just goes on for like 15 seconds it's really interesting use of the platform and it's also like i i i think that i mean i'm from the south jason's from orange county i think you're from the midwest right yeah i mean those are probably the three places where where we have the biggest problems yeah so you know i think that that work is is to be done and i think that that um

it's if it's not your parents it's your uncle you know what i mean it's somebody there's always somebody that's throughout yeah i mean because it needs to be talking but there also needs to be enforcement you know and white people really need to back uh you know back up our black and brown brothers and sisters here because it's like you know it's been a i'd say like one thing now that's like pretty universal is like you can't say the n-word hard r right like Everybody knows you can't say it, right? And why is that? Growing up in school, why wouldn't you say it? Somebody would beat your ass if you said it, right? I feel like that's what made people not say it anymore, right? There's a lot of people who think it and don't say it because they're afraid of getting their ass kicked. And that can't be the only reason why they're afraid of saying it. But it's usually black people who would kick their ass, right? I'm kind of making a dumbass point, but white people need to be the ones kicking each other's ass for a change. It shouldn't feel like a safe space for that kind of behavior just because you're around your white buddies. An issue like that should be handled by a junior employee without going up to upper management. I know that I'm not necessarily saying fight literally, although I also am saying fight literally. But yeah, I mean, it's like it really is on us. It's not on us, but we have to step up. I don't know. I'm kind of like really thinking out loud here. That's good. Yeah, it's like. For all those... I don't want to see a white person putting out a video of some racist person on the bus if they're not stepping in and doing something. It's like, dude, why are you feeling... The likes are not the point here. Go fucking let them know what's going on. I see what you're saying. We know how the police treat non-white people. I would never put that pressure on a black person to put themselves in a...

position of danger to go like stand up some like crazy racist on the bus. If anything, just for the, you know, the chance of getting arrested for it and thrown in jail. But like, yeah, I just, you know, white people can't really, really, really, really can't let it slide anymore. Even if it's just like situations where it's, it would be awkward. to say something you know well i think and i think that's part of the thing that's happening now it's it's gonna hopefully it's normalized to say something you know what i mean and then that takes some of that fear away yeah um because it's like i you know i i say this i guess only because it's like there's certain people that like you're just not gonna educate into changing you know you're like really not gonna so it's like all right well if because they won't listen either some people just won't listen And you could just talk to them and talk to them and talk to them. They're not going to listen to words or, you know, because for some people facing some facing something that would say that, like, they were incorrect or racist. It's like too much for them to. It's too much for them to process. So they would rather like latch on to something that says that they're right, you know. Oh, for sure. Yeah. Like just. I'd rather be wrong than right if my ego isn't bruised. Yeah, because none of these people think they're racist. I mean, to them, boomers, they aren't racist because they already did the stuff that they think they're supposed to do. They don't openly call people the N-word, and they pat themselves on the back for it. That's their growth. That's their education. From people who grew up in the 60s and 70s. Like, they think it's an accomplishment that they don't say the N-word all the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know? Absolutely. Take it a step further, maybe. Just take it one step further. Yeah, and there's this attitude where it's like, wait, like, I don't hate all black people. I'm not racist. Like, so don't call me racist. You know, like, they can't fathom a world where it's like, like, they're kind of like, some of those people, they kind of like pout, you know? They're like, wait, wait, wait. Like, I have to do more? I have to do more now?

But I already stopped saying the N-word in 1975. What more can I do, guys? It's been 40 years. Equality is hard work for a lot of people. I know. And people don't want to do any more work than they're already doing right now. Yeah, it's just weird. It's weird when you talk to somebody like that because they sound like that. It takes you a while to pick up on it, but there is this sort of panic also that I was describing where it's like, like they do realize it but it's scary for them to accept that like oh shit there's like probably stuff i was doing i didn't even know i was doing you know and that's the biggest problem yeah you know what i mean it's like that i think that is the biggest problem the obvious stuff is the obvious stuff but i think that the word systemic and everyone learning what that means is basically what we're talking about you know what i mean it's like it's like you don't just because you don't realize doesn't mean you're not doing it yeah and like You know, there's many reasons why people aren't going to come around. So I think it's like it just needs to be enforced. And it's cool to see, you know, the kids on TikTok talking to their parents and stuff. But, you know, parents, they might not listen. Yeah. So it's like if they don't, then let there be consequences. Like there have to be, you know. No, you're right. You're right. I mean, I think that. Oh, man. That's a good point. I think you just – yeah, you got it. Like it can't just be like a one conversation thing if somebody doesn't want to listen. It needs to go beyond that. It needs to go beyond that. Like it's – the time for agree to disagree is long gone for this. Like there's like – you know, that should never apply to racism. No, I think – yeah, definitely not. I think agree to disagree is having a rough time right now as a thing. You know what I mean? I think it's – I think that phrase, that turn of phrase is going to be retired in the – near future if not already um for this exact reason but yeah i mean i think that the um i think so what what is your take on the protest i feel like you're somebody who is is pretty pro pro protest pro protest yeah um i mean it's been inspiring it's i right now what's the date today i don't know when these will come out but it's the june 9th right now my my mood on watching it

And, um, I mean, I'm mostly just watching it. Uh, you know, I've gone to one of the LA protests, but, um, they're happening all over the country. But my, from watching from afar all over the country, um, I feel like it's in a place where it's really, really ripe to be co-opted right now by like brands and shit, you know, um, even though they've tried brands or like expedient. cynical actors. I wanted to talk to you about that. I saw that earlier. That shit is insane. Oh, you're talking about the literal actors. Please explain to people because I saw this and I sent it to Jason. I was like, we have to talk to Jack about this because this is truly the worst possible thing that could happen for this, in my opinion. One of. You're talking about the new Black Panthers, right? Yes. Okay, I'll explain that. To complete my point from before, though, I actually wasn't referring to this. I was thinking that there's such a critical mass right now of people that I think it's big enough where it would motivate companies and politicians and stuff to make cynical decisions of like, oh, that's a lot of people right now. Maybe it's time to pander. and lie and try to take this. Yeah, definitely, definitely. Okay, so what you're describing is a much nuttier thing. I'm pulling up the thread here. In Atlanta, there's this picture that went super viral, and it's these young black... They range from kids to young adults. I'm looking at the picture now. in like all black tactical gear, they're wearing, you know, they're, they're wearing outfits that resemble, you know, black Panthers type uniforms. And, um, the picture went viral saying that it was like the new black Panther party. Um, but then like, they've been called other things too. There's like, basically the, the FBI destroyed the black Panther party. As many people know. Um, and like, it's been trying to re people have tried to revive it, but it's like, Ben,

problematic in various ways um and so there's not really like an official revival so anyway this went viral because like there's like a uh like the girl is kind of a babe she's carrying an ar-15 um she has like you know natural hair looking cool as shit in the front of this she really she really does look cool as shit It's, like, a very powerful image at first glance. It is. And, like, the Black Panthers looked cool as fuck, too. I mean, like, that was, like, part of their appeal in the beginning. And cool as fuck and intimidating. But so, basically, I've been seeing... Okay, so everybody's, like, freaking out about her and, like, excited and inspired, right? But then, like, this picture came out of her, like, arm in arm with, like, a fat, white, like, no-neck cop. Like, the worst type of, like, cop. The completely bald, no neck type cop. Someone that doesn't even know that racism is a thing. He missed the whole boat. Basically, people have become suspicious of these new Black Panther Party. People have been doing deep dives. the main ones there's like four of them they're literally actors and like filmmakers from atlanta and then like if you take a look at what they're wearing it's all kind of like like the patch they have like a panther patch but it's not actually a black panther patch it's like the 81st airborne patch i think um i think it's all it's all it's all just a little suspicious when you get a little closer yeah and she has like um Like a really cheap AR-15 and it's a .22 caliber, which is just kind of like nobody would really have it for self-defense. For shooting squirrels. Yeah. I mean, you can't really... It would take like 20 shots to kill somebody with a .22 caliber. And so people think that they were plants, basically.

And I don't know. It's just very weird. I think what sticks out to me and what you guys probably saw, the only thing I commented on was I commented on one of the posts about it saying it's just strange that none of their friends have stepped up. Because maybe the way I think of it is like, all right, worst case scenario, it's some really fucking weird stunt, right? Or like a psyop. That's what people think. Or like the cops. would plan to undercover people in there for various reasons i don't know i wouldn't know the motivation of making them like so front and center but um so that's like one that's like the full tinfoil the other way to think of it is like okay maybe these are like like like they're actors right so maybe they are genuine but we all know actors and like can think of an actor you know could you imagine them kind of like getting a black panther costume to go to the protests you know and being like i could see actors kind of talking to each other being like we should start a new book you know like like really trying to do it and like maybe they're genuine but they just like had some missteps right like like they'll really be able to nail their auditions now that they have some real world experience holding a gun on the front line or like like they actually tried to start a new wing of the black panthers like You know, just like kind of having like actor brain and being like, oh, no, let's do it. Like, let's get the stuff, you know. Yeah, no, I mean, like, I could see that. And it's like, you know, that doesn't mean that they're bad actors. That means they just like kind of goofed and would like. But if that was the case, I would kind of see. Everybody's talking to them like they're like literally like cops, like snitches, like setups, like crisis actors or something, you know. So if that was the case, I would imagine that one of their friends would come forward and talk about him. Right. Out them, you mean. Be like, this is fucked up? No. This is my friend Ron. I went to high school with him. He's not a Black Panther at all. He works at Subway. This is some bullshit. No, because they're already getting shit on. Everybody thinks that they're literally police officers. It's been going for a week. So Jason, let's say this was like...

the reverse and it was you, right? I like where this is going. Yeah. And you weren't, you clearly weren't a snitch. You weren't a fed. Like you maybe were like sort of cosplaying. You got in a little overhead, right? Like you're wearing too much of a costume. I would probably, you know, as your friend, I would be responding and probably quote tweeting me. I'm like, Hey, I know that guy. He's not a cop. I think he may be. you know, made an aggressive choice with his outfit. And like, maybe he shouldn't have posed with that police officer for a picture, but he's not a cop. Like, you know, he's a good guy. He's a good guy. Like any actor, their, their desire for fame and exposure can cloud their, their judgment, even to the point of doing something as insane as this. Yeah. And I mean, it's not the weird thing too, is that like, maybe they are who they say they are, I guess like. It's still strange. Maybe they're genuine. It's weird to take a picture with a police officer. While you're a member of the Black Panthers? Yeah. Anybody who knows anything about the Black Panther Party would know that the one thing they wouldn't do is take a picture with a cop. Like it's like the only thing the black Panthers did a lot of things that were unusual, but like, I mean, maybe I'm wrong, but like, I'm pretty sure that was like the one thing you don't do is take a picture with a police officer, let alone a white police officer as a black Panther. I don't, all this shit, all the kneeling cops, like, like talking to the cop shit makes me fucking insane. Like, I can't believe that people are that thick. that that is, like, the antithesis of what is happening. Well, I think people should, like, refresh themselves on the Black Panther story, too, and the real story during this time because it'll give everybody a good refresher of, like, what mistakes to not make during this protest, you know, because it's, like, it's easy to forget.

how much law enforcement will, how far they'll go to infiltrate things that they view as a threat, you know? So even though it might seem like a tinfoil hat thing of like a lot of these, you know, a lot of the people are trying to become leaders right now, like saying they're plants. That's not that crazy. Like it's really not like they've, they've done much crazier things than fully documented, not conspiracy theory, like to, to shut down organizations like the Black Panthers. Yeah, and that was when they were armed with the technology of 50 years ago. So now we're in 2020 and there are things that the government is doing to us right now that will probably make us sick to our stomach. That we'll never even know about. Yeah. God, I don't even want to imagine. And we're white. Right? I mean, yeah, it's pretty crazy. And you see, I've seen like smaller versions that are less insidious, but just kind of like stupid and like maddening. And it's hard when you don't have like real structured leadership in a movement. I mean, this is simply too big to have like real leadership. But when there's like a vacuum of leadership, you see all sorts of freaks step up, you know, like that one guy in New York who like secretly. coordinated with the NYPD to, like, plan a start and end time or something for one of the marches. And was like, do you see that? And then there's, like, video of him talking to, like, the precinct captain or something after the march, like, walking with him. Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And he had, like, a video crew with him. Yeah, and it's weird because it's like nobody asked him to lead it, to be a leader. Nobody gave him permission to. And everybody at that march would not have gone if they knew the police were down. That completely undoes the reason to protest if the police agreed to it. Like, why? And it's weird. I guess Twitter and activists are just doing their best to watch out for these people and shut them down. Because, yeah, it's like...

Like, movements like this do attract weird narcissists. That's the problem. We've talked about this, and our guest earlier this week, Gabby, was kind of explaining the leadership of Black Lives Matter, that it was all women, and that was a big part of it. So you think overall, this entire thing, is too big to kind of have a leader? But do you think leadership would also help kind of organize it a little bit? Or do you think it's in vain? Well, I think it's just like, and I was not referring to Black Lives Matter. I know there's like leadership structure in that, but like in these protests, they're happening way too fast to have leaders, right? Like YG hosted one of the, like it's pretty much like anybody who has enough clout that wants to post like an address can start a protest now, which is pretty cool. It's weird because the scene's so big that it's, like, hard to... And so new, sort of. It's like this version of activism is, like, kind of new. So there's, like... It's hard to self-police, I think. Mm-hmm. So, you know, there's going to be some weirdos that slip through the cracks without being noticed. I mean, of course, because otherwise, like, you know, if you if that weren't the case, then everybody would probably be really paranoid of each other all the time. Yeah, that's that's fucking for sure. The opposite of that is like what killed the Black Panthers. It's like the police or the FBI systematically taking out the leadership and then sowing paranoia and distrust among the ranks. So that's the other thing I've heard too. Like as soon as you identify leaders in something that feels extreme, then they're just going to get, they're going to be gone. Yeah. I'm trying to think of like, there's a great quote and I was seeing it the other day about saying like to have inherent distrust in like anybody within civil rights that like comes and says to the Messiah and you're going to lead us to the promised land, you know, basically they're like a fraud, you know, cause it's.

Only the collective can do that. Yeah, it's an interesting time because like I was saying, when there's this many people and it's like anybody could get up and have a big megaphone, it can also attract the wrong type of person. Oh yeah, no, absolutely. Anything this big, you're right, is going to pull that kind of person in. But I think overall, still for the best oh a hundred percent i was getting into the nuances yeah we kind of like strayed um because i think the first thing i said about the protest was that they're so big that they they might attract um cynical forces that want to manipulate but the fact that they're that big is great um i mean it's so cool to see i mean are you kidding me like la had um dude my friends tried like like the situation now is that my friends like tried to go to the the most recent huge protest in la and they like we're all texting like dude like i don't we don't know how to get there like like there's nowhere to park your car even remotely close like like it's so big and expanding that like we can't go you know yeah that's fucking crazy yeah yeah no yeah we would take like By the time you get there, it would be gone. New York and other cities are different. LA, I can't just make my way to West Hollywood where I live. I have to drive or do something like that. And parking in LA. Sometimes it could just be not possible. Absolutely. But that's cool. That's a good thing. I hope the energy keeps going. I think it will, as long as everyone remains unemployed. Yeah, that's true. I think that's been a huge help for everything. I think if people keep up the enforcement attitude, I want to see less enforcement from the police and more enforcement from...

the protesters you know and when they go home like we need to enforce the new system that we want to see culturally you know no i think you're 100 right i think that like it talking about it is one thing and kind of enacting it is another thing and you need both sides yeah um jack i want to talk about um and antifa oh yeah it's uh you know it I think a lot of people are kind of confused or wondering how just sort of all of a sudden it became the number one terror organization in America right now. And how that's being used as a tool against, I guess, liberal people. Or anybody who supports black people. So funny. I guess we saw the rise of Antifa. kind of around, like, the Charleston Tiki Torch protests. Like, tragedy, really. That really was a fucking tragedy. Jesus Christ. Yeah, that's probably, like, why most, I feel like mainstream America find out about Antifa around then. But, you know, the funny thing is that, like, there's no Antifa. It's just, like, it's really just, like, a way of... being at a protest right so like all like antifa members are just like whatever high school or college kid wanted to put on a black hoodie and like you know a red bandana and act like that that specific day like i could go to a protest tomorrow and i could be antifa right um and there are some people that are like diehards but that's like the funny thing about them wanting to ban it is like well what are you gonna ban there's no no actual members and like all those people, um, you know, like if you, if you've designated the hell's angels as a terrorist organization, um, there are members on paper and people have tattoos. Like you can tell who is a hell's angel and who is not. Um, and they would, you know, Antifa, it's like, you can just change the name. Really. It's like, they would have to explicitly ban.

It's like banning anonymous. Yeah, right? It's pretty funny. Did Antifa start originally as a positive good thing and that was switched into negative by propaganda? Well, I'm no expert, but Antifa dates back to the early Communist Party. the 1930s, right? Yeah. Which, I mean, it goes real, real, real far back. And I think, and there's still, like, real Antifa sects that you'll see around the world. I mean, I think even, like, fighting in Syria, there's, like, militia groups. But, of course, that's, like, very different than what's going on at, like, a college campus protest, right? I mean, those Antifa members were, like, you know. Like literal militia members with like AK-47s fighting actual fascists. But I think like the imagery, I don't really, like I said, I'm not an expert, but I feel like it's not super new. It just became like the thing. But I think the funniest part now is like it's just such, it's the boogeyman for a lot of these people that live in small towns, you know. Um, they're so scared. So I think the, I think the next move is to just like make up Antifa lies. Um, and like, you know, like any troublemaking kid in a small town could like, you know, make some fake Antifa March event and get all of all the conservatives in town. scared and showing up to the local Walmart to protect it from Antifa if they wanted to. That's definitely true. Yeah, that's definitely true. Yeah, it's just the boogeyman right now. It's so funny. I think the people who are scared of it, do they not even know what fascism is or what that word means and why being against that is not a bad thing? Yeah, it's weird. I mean, I don't even know what I think about it, too, because I don't like to get in those arguments personally where it's like, oh, it's anti-fascist, so if you don't like Antifa, you must like fascists. It's like, all right, well, because I don't know, it kind of bothers me sometimes. People throw around Nazi too often and fascist as well. It's like, all right.

Oftentimes that word's being used when it's just like a person you don't like, you know? Or like a really fucking ignorant idiot or a racist, you know? But it's like, it's weird. Like there are differences between a racist person and a Nazi. Like there are differences, right? Like the Nazis have very specific beliefs and they did very specific horrible things, you know? So it's weird when, like, I do see some arguments where it's, like, talking about, like, oh, Antifa versus, like, the fascists and the Nazis, and really it's just, like, a bunch of college kids in hoodies who probably come from, like, really wealthy families, even themselves, some of them, you know? And they're fighting just, like, weird dads who are, like, cosplaying as militia dudes, right? Dude, it's really... lay it out like this yeah it's like it's like neither of them are either of the things it's like you guys are both from the suburbs almost doing like this civil war reenactment thing in like a field because like i think it was portland for a while that was like having real bad like clashes and at some point i was just like dude where it'd be like the the anti-fascists would show up to like protest the fascists and like vice versa And they're always just destroying Portland. It's like, dude, can you just rent these guys a field and let them fight it out? Let them lark? Yeah, they're just protesting each other. Yeah. And I'm referring to a couple years ago. Yeah, I remember that. They're just protesting each other's protests. It's like, dude, let them play paintball or something. This doesn't matter. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's like, these guys aren't even the fascists. It's weird to call a fat dad that. They may be real, real shitty, but they're also most likely just some super fucking ignorant asshole that has no power. Whereas Steve Bannon, it's a more accurate term, he has power. He can actually enact things. That was a weird era.

But I'm not against Antifa. It's just like, I don't even remember where I was going with that. That specifically was a funny time. That's where I was going with that. Stolen Antifa valor. Yeah, exactly. Well, yeah, anybody could be Antifa. That's the funny thing. And anybody can be a Nazi. I mean, apparently. What do you think about Big Trumpito right now? Bro. He crossed the line for me this morning. With saying the 75-year-old man? Yeah. I mean, dude, I haven't gone on Twitter again today. I saw that and it was just too much for me to see. Also, can you sue a sitting president? You could be sued for what he said. I don't know if you can. He's out of control with that shit, though. He's out of control with everything, but that was particularly wild boy. His phrasing, I think he can be sued for that. It might be hard to sue a sitting president, but I'd like to see it happen. Dude, that poor old man, his life will never be the same. All these freaks... His life is ruined. Yeah. I mean, regardless of the injury, it's like now all of these conspiracy freaks are going to be after him. We're in eternity. It's so sad. Thinking that he is an Antifa plant and not to be trusted. And fuck Jack from Twitter, too, for being okay with it happening. It's far beyond free speech. And also, that's not protected speech. Like I just said, you could be sued for that. That's not free speech to intentionally spread malicious lies about somebody. Do you think when he tweets something like that, he's just letting it fly off the cuff? Or this is all part of a big calculated push towards something? I think he has really good instincts. I think it's like...

I think it's like racist jazz for him. It's like hate jazz. Freestyling. He's not thinking about it, but he's still following the scales. He's a savant of racism. That's actually a great way to explain it. The tweets are fucking insane. This is unprecedented that he didn't go to... He didn't go to George Floyd's funeral. Like the stuff that he's doing is truly like the first time any president has ever acted like this. Yeah. And it's like something new every day. Yeah. I don't know. Dude, I'm nobody's an expert anymore, but like, I don't know. I feel like he has gone too far. It's going to hurt him now. I think the Rose Garden thing and like the tear gasp of the protesters to like hold up the Bible was too far for that. I think that's where he really stepped over the line for even the most extreme. I think unless something drastically changes, like if the election was tomorrow, like there's like a lot of moderates that would maybe vote for him secretly. It's like their kids would like disown them. If they did it, you know, like there's a lot of people that he would lose votes based on like parents who were just like, dude, I don't want to like, I won't go vote. Like, I think they just wouldn't vote. You know, it's like, I'm not willing to have that fight. Like I'm going to just hang out with my kids today and like not start a huge fight with them over this. Like, cause I don't really care that much anyway. Like, I think that's like, that's where he's losing right now is like the people who just like would have, would skip the vote to like not have a massive. Massive blowback. People who were maybe on the fence and were voting for Trump because of their tax cuts or business incentives that were benefiting them. Those people are finally being like, all right, I can't do this and look at my children in the eyes anymore. Yeah, I don't know how many people will convert to Biden, but I think there will be a no vote, a good amount of no votes at all.

I think it'll be maybe the most no votes in history as far as people who normally vote not voting. Maybe. But, dude, I've shifted, like, right when Bernie had the knife stabbed in his back by Sneaky Pete, rat-faced Pete Buttigieg. Sneaky Pete is too good. Yeah, Sneaky Pete and really everybody. Yeah. Obama holding the... The puppet strings from above. But, you know, after that, like, I was one of the people that was like, dude, fuck it. Like, I will never vote for Joe Biden. Fuck that. Like, I will actively fight against him. He's going to be the same. I've changed. That's how a lot of people thought a few months ago, huh? Yeah. And I mean, I don't think I was wrong back then, but the landscape's changed and the rules have changed where it's like, I no longer like, I'm not going to be. camp out there campaigning for joe biden but like i'm gonna not be actively shitting on him to my audience all the time um i'll at most like sit it out because it's like it's no longer i can no longer say that it's like gonna be the same thing no matter what like like i don't think joe biden's gonna bring in like this the change we're looking for at all but like dude The escalation I've been seeing just from the Twitter from Trump, it's like, dude, if we could at least have that not happen, where he's inciting people to go out and attack protesters, it's like, dude, even if we could save a couple lives, literal lives, that's the thing. It's worth it. Literal danger now. Before it was symbolic danger. Now it's like, oh, There are people actually getting hurt and killed. If Trump is out of the office, lives will be spared and people will be able to go on. Yeah. And I think it's only getting worse too. Yeah. I mean, I just don't know if things are, it's gotten down to this visceral place where it's like almost not political anymore. You know what I mean? Like it is, of course, for some people, but I think for a lot of people, it's like, this is just wrong.

Like, this is just fucked up on, like, a human being level. And I can't stand by for that. Seeing a 75-year-old man get pushed to the ground by 100 cops, you know, I don't care who you are, that's going to affect you. And people who are on the fence are going to be like, I mean, I know you may be a terrible person, a racist, blah, blah, blah. You know, you see that and you know that inside of you that that is just wrong. Like, no one would disagree with that. Yeah. It's the same thing with the George Floyd. I think that's part of the reason this has been such an uprising is because people actually saw it. You know what I mean? It's not like a bad footage. It's like a full video of a guy just dying before your eyes. Yeah. That's just too powerful. That strikes something in people that goes beyond politics. Yeah. And it's not like... I don't know if any elected official really would give a shit like they're supposed to, you know, or do anything about this. Yeah, it's weird. I don't know. And it's like, on the other hand, if I wanted to argue with myself, like if Joe Biden was president right now, do I think there would be this protest right now, which I consider to be good? Or like, would a Joe Biden president have gotten? on TV and pacified everybody and lied and then like, we're going to do something about this and then never do anything. You know, that's a very, that's a very interesting angle. Yeah. You know, there's two ways to look at it, which is kind of, you know, kind of what Obama did. Yeah. And we were, we, yeah, for, we just, or that's kind of what almost every president does is just. Give you that CBD gummy for four years and everything's going to be okay? Yeah. And Trump is exposing the bad and the good and what we have to do. Trump's giving us crushed up Adderall, baby. It's different. No, yeah. He's giving us like... What is he giving us? I'm trying to think of the exact... He's waking everybody up. He's giving us like cocaine that's like 100% baby powder. And like maybe...

A speck of cocaine. And you just, like, hit it and you're like, what the fuck? Pissed off, like. Really stepped on. Yeah, just, like, savagely stepped on. Yeah. And, like, that are all. I mean, so are you a little bit or are you, like, a hard and fine dude guy right now? I'm sorry, what was that? You kind of broke up. Yeah, repeat that, Chris. Sorry. Are you like a hard-wired news guy or are you giving yourself a break? I'm pretty plugged in, but the news, the actual news gets exhausting, you know, like mainstream news. But I've been hardcore plugged into, you know, the matrix, so to speak, of Twitter and stuff. Like I've been spending entire days just like reading and like watching what's going on in the world, you know. watching the live streams but i'm trying to give myself relief a little bit yeah i've had to start taking some breaks it's just it's i guess also when it's all bad it just feels even more extreme do you guys see your explore pages healing like the like the rest of mother earth dude people are going back to normal like a little too soon there's i mean My Explore page still looks the same. It's like influencer chicks, skateboarding videos, and cool interiors. There's only like four genres of the algorithm, right? All of my influencer chicks have left the Explore page. It's crazy. Dude, the algorithm, the Instagram algorithm is awful. Do you remember before it would be like shit your friends liked and stuff? That was good. Yeah, I would literally have some organic discovery. Yeah, I would see like stuff that you guys liked. And I would, you know, stumble across things of people who have mutual interests. Literally now, it's like there's no way I'm not seeing like paparazzi photos of Justin Bieber only. Yeah, yeah. And then I'll like turn that off. Like I'll do like I'm not interested. And then I'll just get like some other like a random TikTok girl or something. And my whole page will be that. I'm like, who is this?

And I'll turn that off, and it's like, dude, it's not mysterious. It's like they're just barraging me with waves of a specific person. It is bad. It is really bad. It was Bieber and his girlfriend for a while, though, or his wife. Well, that is fine with me, personally. Really? I'm a Hailey Bieber stan. Really? Why? Well, for the obvious reasons, I think. It's not for her insightful commentary. Sure. But I just think that they're also, like, them being on vacation in, like, a $300,000 RV right now in Utah is some true, like, that's their version of, like, a doomsday fucking vault. You know what I mean? Yeah. That's hilarious. I love, I mean, the way celebrities handle things like this is truly my favorite kind of entertainment. Yeah. Bieber kind of, like, exists in some kind of netherworld. We're losing you, man, I think. Oh, Chris. You with the fans, Chris with the party switch getting triggered. Yeah, it's a tough day in podcast recording world. Sorry, guys. It's okay. Sorry, guys. Don't worry. Have you noticed that... Wait, actually, no. Are you back now, Chris? Yeah, I'm here. Okay, cool. I noticed on your podcast recently you've had some guests like Jacob Wall and other people like that. How has that been going for you in terms of kind of reaching out or interviewing? I know when you were doing that episode with Jacob, you guys were a little... discussing how you were on the fence about giving him a platform. What was that process like for you? Oh, well, that was a funny thing. I don't know if we were ever actually on the fence. I know that we were expecting criticism. I know we were expecting criticism. But to me, interviewing Jacob Bull is not giving him a platform. He has a platform. Or he has. He's kind of like...

whittled away at it by losing credibility for lying. This is a man who's been retweeted by the President of the United States multiple times. That's so fucked up. To think that our Patreon gives him a platform is very hilarious. Especially because we're in complete control. If you want to have a bad person on your podcast, it's one thing if that person works you. And, you know, like embarrasses you. You shouldn't do that. But we were just like making fun of him to his face. Not even like subtly. Just like, dude, you're a liar. Your girlfriend's not real. So, yeah, there's only like a couple people that said something. But they also clearly didn't listen to the episode. I don't think there's like a way you could listen to that and be like, yeah, these are. these are bad guys enabling this idiot racist, you know, like, what about it? It was like shitting on him. Um, you know, I guess there are people out there who are putting quote unquote bad people on their shows. Like Joe Rogan does it a decent amount and, and just like breakfast club. We'll have some sus people on there. Charlemagne went on Rush Limbaugh, right? That's insane. I guess him going on there is different than Rush coming on Breakfast Club in some ways. But Charlemagne, no one's benefiting more right now than Charlemagne. He's really trotting himself out there. Getting that Joe Biden quote is crazy. I think people like and hate listening to that stuff. And I don't know if giving them a platform allows them to... humanize them a little bit you know it's kind of like what jack it's like you're not going to change rush limbaugh's mind like it's literally he gets paid 50 million dollars to be terrible like he's not changing his mind but but if rush limbaugh you know says a few sentences that some listeners find to be kind of insightful and interesting he might you know convert a few people on as as newfound rush limbaugh fans or alex jones fans you guys are actually you're getting to like

the next prong of my Jacob wool thing is that like, and this is unique to our show, but like I, I have, uh, anybody who thinks that like Jacob coming on is a bad, is dangerous is like there that's insulting to our audience. Cause like, I don't, you know, I have, uh, I know our audience pretty well. It'd be different if I hosted the breakfast club, it would be different. It's like sent out there to anybody who wants to tune in and it's so big. And like, you really like, You have no sense of who's listening because it's so big that a variety of people are listening. Ours is pretty niche, so I don't think it's dangerous. If somebody's been listening to our show this whole time, the people who would be vulnerable to Jacob Wool's tricks would have tuned out a long time ago. There's no way they would have survived. They're just listening for sport at that point. and we didn't even give him a chance to say anything to lure them. It'd be way different if that wasn't the case. I have a good sense of our audience and who they are, and I think we kind of maintain our audience a little bit, like shepherds. There is a way to do that, too. Can you give us some tips, please? Yeah, we need some tips. Your psychological warfare for maintaining your audience? Well, I remember early on when I got a bunch of Instagram followers, when there was some shit that I just didn't like seeing happening on my page or whatever, occasionally I would just make an example of somebody. happen anymore. I remember my neighbor, this is a really fucked up example, but I remember I had this redneck neighbor and when rabbits would eat his garden, he would shoot one and bleed the rabbit all over the garden to scare the rabbits from never coming back. I know, right? So that's sometimes what you gotta do with one of your followers.

you know but uh no but like you know if somebody's like being a piece of shit and if like if you don't want that to become normal you have to like just treat one of be very harsh to one of them once you know and fair harsh but fair you know like make sure everybody sees and then if everybody sees they're like all right i'm not gonna do that you know right i mean by doing you you risk losing uh people that listen to you or like you you know i mean i think we've gotten to the point also where oh no well yeah i mean making an example of people you know that can go wrong but if you do it well it's quite effective and you know the smart people paying attention will will take notes because the thing that everyone fears the most is you know somebody that they a leader publicly shaming them yeah or their own leader yeah um and it's not like i'm saying we do that on the podcast but the podcast version is like you know we we've done so much bernie stuff like there's no way like like there's no conservative guys listening uh hanging on still like we've not held back with our thoughts on that. I think they would have been exhausted by that point. Or bored. So in terms of somebody like Jacob coming on. And that's the thing too. So one regret I do have is the trap guy. I kind of wish I like, when I had the trap dude on, I knew that he was ignorant. So I didn't argue every single point he made. Because it was like, Maybe I don't even regret this, but it's one of those things where it's like, my audience already knows what I'm going to say. They're thinking what I'm thinking, pretty much. It's on our Patreon. We're in a Discord together. I had the guy from Trapped who's literally the entire internet's fighting with him right now. He doesn't have a single person on his side. New metal band Trapped from the early 2000s. For those who don't know.

I was the only one to talk to him. I was DMed him. I'm like, hey man, what's up? I had him on. I'm like, why are you so mad, dude? Why are you pissed? Why are you so pissed? He's actually pretty more chill than he acted online. I still don't really know why he is that mad, but he did say some stuff where it's ignorant uncle type stuff. I didn't check him on everything. Um, I kind of regret not checking him. I mean, I kind of wanted to, I mean, if you're not familiar with this, the trap Twitter, like he was just like on there every day fighting with people hard every day. About what? Exactly. Just anything, anything, anything. So it's like, to me, when I was interviewing him, I was trying to get down to like, And I didn't. I didn't find out really. Were you trying to armchair a psychologist him? A little bit. I mean, that's kind of like any good interview, you're trying to do that a little bit. So I was trying to get him to a place where I'm like, dude, why are you on there arguing every day with these people? There's no point. So I was not going to get caught up on being like, well, sir, actually, your view on this is incorrect. But at the same time, it's weird to leave things unchecked. But yeah, that was a weird one. But that's another thing, too. I think the fact that it was a Patreon episode, it's like, I know our audience. It's like seeing your kids watch an R-rated movie. It's like, look, I know that the kids are capable of seeing this and not having their brains altered by the trapped guy. I'm confident that my audience is the brain power to not get brainwashed by something the singer of Trapped says on our podcast. It can also just be pure entertainment. If there was people that do fundamentally agree with him, they're most likely not behind our paywall. If they were, it's like, all right, I guess we'll take your money. Who's the joke on?

paid to listen to him yeah what uh that's the other thing about jacob wool it's like there's no jacob wool fans anymore like so there's no like there's no profiting off of the jacob wool bump you know like right literally he doesn't even have fans so it's like it would be one thing if i had charlie kirk on the podcast like charlie kirk's people would probably be tuning in and like giving money it's like then i would feel bad just that'd be like i'm taking the I'm taking the devil's money, you know, but that's not with Jacob. But anyway, what were you saying? Um, has there been anything like in the last couple of months that you've learned about interviewing or podcasting that you, that you didn't really know before? Oh, well, I've learned so much technical stuff that I'm not going to say. Thank you. Thank you for that. Yeah, exactly. We're, you're going FaceTime to, uh, FaceTime to a RSS feed direct. But I mean, it is because I'm also the producer of, yeah, but still. So, dude, there's like a lot of wild technical stuff that like, I don't know. How tech savvy is your audience, do you think? Not, not, not. You think there's some creatives? Yeah, I'm more talking about the non-technical things. You know, cause you, cause your podcast has grown to have a pretty big platform and you know, you kind of have to learn and adjust how, how you broadcast what you're doing as your audience grows. Yeah. Okay. So non-technical I'd say is still like in terms of like, I've noticed some things with like the craft of podcasting, I guess. And a major hurdle of. A major hurdle of recording a talk show mobily, I guess, is the instinct to, when you're doing it mobily over FaceTime or something like that, there's like a natural instinct to have it just be like a phone call, right? And recording episodes is like a nonstop fight against that instinct as a host. Because some podcasts can be like a phone call, but others,

you don't want it to be. You naturally go to that, especially if you know the guest a little bit. It could easily turn into where you're just having a phone call with the person. If you don't want that, you obviously got to stop it. The fact of being on FaceTime is way different than the formality of having a microphone in front of your face. I mean, that goes the opposite way too. You lose your power a bit because like interviewing somebody on camera, you have a lot of power just being behind the camera. Like there's a lot of tricks interviewing somebody just knowing that the guest is typically nervous and you're not. You can kind of corner them into answering questions they don't want to answer really. Yeah. Or like with a smile. Yeah. And get them to talk more. Like if you just don't like. A very common tactic for interviewing somebody on camera is if they give a short answer, you just don't say anything. You just look at them and they'll just start talking again because they're confused. People turn into puppies in that situation where they want to please. They're just like, oh, I'm doing it wrong. I need to talk more. I feel the silence. Do you consider yourself to be less of a phone call style podcast fan? I try to. Well, we're kind of phone call-ish, but I try to combat it a little bit, especially if we know the guest. For us, I try to eliminate. The type of shit I try to eliminate is where it's like two people are talking about something that only has meaning to them. They're like, oh, remember that time we went to McDonald's. Yeah, that's the worst. And it's just like, kind of, yeah. They're just talking to each other. It's like, yeah, this isn't a story. This isn't a story. It's not going anywhere. It's just a time you guys shared, and the audience didn't. Unless it's DiCaprio and Brad Pitt telling the story, nobody gives a shit. Jack, thank you for joining us. Tell the people where they can find you online. Versace, Tamagotchi on Instagram.

Although I don't post, I haven't been posting there that much. Jack D. Wagner on Twitter. And then mainly check out my podcast. Yeah, but still, wherever you listen to podcasts. And also we have a Patreon. Honestly, I'll specifically plug the Jacoble episode. It's pretty funny. That's probably my favorite. Some of my best work is behind the paywall. And that was, you know, I feel like in many ways, I feel like me and Brandon have been training. All 200 episodes have been training to do that Jacob Bull episode. Me and Brandon are very different people. Anybody that listens to the podcast knows how different we are. But then I felt like we were two female lions hunting a gazelle in the night, stalking our prey together. communicating without words, silently, telekinetically. It was really funny. Afterwards, me and Brandon were like, hi. I came down for like two hours after that. You guys went to Shaq and Kobe mode. Yeah. No, absolutely. Obviously, we were texting each other during that. It was just so focused. It's a crazy experience talking to Jacob Poole. an amazing liar. He lies with, he lies with such confidence that it's disorienting. So it's like, it's weird to take him on. Interesting to just see a master at work, even if it is a master of evil. It kind of is. Um, yeah, he, I mean, he, he is shitty. I mean, like no question. He was just like, we kind of felt, you know, we started feeling, questioning ourselves. Cause he was like, there was some news story that was saying that he was like doing a fundraiser for the guy who killed George Floyd. But, um, I guess if it was even real, it's probably been shut down. But yeah, it's like, he is a piece of shit. I will say that I don't really know if he, if I know anything about Jacob bowl, I don't know if he even did a fundraiser, you know? Like, I think he just kind of like put stuff out like that. And, um,

In many ways, I think the real people who give him a platform are the few blogs that will still print his press releases. Even if it's to call him an idiot. Don't give him mainstream news coverage about his actual agenda. Yeah, even if it's bad. I see what you're saying. All right, well, we'll listen to that. Thank you, Jack, and stay safe out there, my COVID game. Thanks. You too. Thanks for having me on. Of course. We'll talk to you soon. See ya. Later.