059. - Leon Neyfakh

All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian. And they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world. And they do it three times a week. Jason, does that sound familiar to you? We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place. All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcast. or watch on YouTube. Want to make a podcast? Spotify's got a platform that lets you make one super easily, then distribute it everywhere, and even earn money. We like that. All in one place for totally free. It's called Spotify for Podcasters. And here's how it works. Spotify for podcasters lets you record and edit podcasts right from your cellular telephone or your computer. So no matter what your setup is like, you can start creating today. Then you can distribute your podcast to Spotify and everywhere else, those other places that podcasts are heard. Video podcasts are also available on Spotify. And when you want to take conversations with your fans to the next level, Q&As and polls are the best way to get them talking. With Spotify for podcasters, you can earn money in a variety of ways, including ads and... and podcast subscriptions. And best of all, it's totally free. Zero catch. We've been using it ever since we started How Long Gone. And ever since I discovered Spotify for Podcasters, I feel like having the option of turning off the Q&As and the polls on the user dashboard has really helped boost my creativity and take it to another level. I highly recommend giving it a try. Download the Spotify for Podcasters app or go to www.spotify.com slash podcasters to get started.

Hello, Chris. What's up, Big Teej? That was a big exhale. No, no, I'm actually feeling great today. I had a great time on my run this morning. The weather is nice. I'm feeling pretty hydrated. The body's feeling... I'm having a little bit of pain in my quad, but otherwise, I think I can... Sarah gunned that out before our tennis match at three. This is the kind of stuff I'm focused on, TJ. Full body recovery. Hopefully you're also focusing on podcasting. Oh, is that what we're doing right now? Yeah, it's time to lock the gates. How long goners? Lock the gates. What up? How long fuck sticks? God, I love making fun of Marc Maron. It truly never gets old. I don't understand it. Well, it did start getting old right when his girlfriend died. Well, you would have to listen to his podcast to know about that. No, that was news. That was trending news. No, that was news. She was a famous person in her own right. That is a very sad story. All joking aside, that shit's rough. I don't mean to make a joke of death, unfortunately, but that's how us podcasters deal with certain real situations. Do you have your Stratocaster ready to play some sick blues riffs at the end of this episode? Or are you just going to do a Radiohead sample so it feels more Jason? I was thinking I'd just pick up the telly and noodle for a bit. Is that cool with you guys? Yeah, I mean, what I like to do, you know, the best part about him doing that is that he has a fan who adds full band to those riffs and sends it to them, and he reposts it. Really? I did not know that. Yes, yes, yes. I mean, I guess that's kind of beautiful in a pathetic way.

It's cool to see collaboration happen across the world with technology, but that's someone's whole life. I love collaboration. It's really part of my DNA, but I would say that this is actually where I draw the line on collaboration. You're fine with cloud-based solutions for your collaboration, but not fine with... With somebody taking the raw guitar licks of a podcaster and then, you know, improvising a musical setting behind it. That is a bridge too far. And I think I would agree with you. Yeah, like at the end of this podcast, if I, you know, happen to feel compelled and spit a hot 16 freestyle off the dome, and then maybe a fan of ours were to take that and add some just bumping 808s to it and really, you know, create a song out of it. that would be honestly i'd feel a little disrespected uh because i didn't i didn't i didn't agree to that collaboration jason you see what i'm saying i see i exactly and that could be um you know defamation of character depending on how tasty the beats are or are not exactly exactly yeah and first of all i find all my beats on youtube like all the hot rappers i only work with 16 year olds from slobic country so you only listen to bladey type beat Exactly, exactly, exactly. I was making my girlfriend listen to Blady yesterday in the car, and I don't know. Are you still together? We are. I was trying to show her. We were kind of driving around, running some errands, and I was showing her whatever's going on with the kids nowadays type of music, and her understanding and comprehension of it was just like. what the fuck is this what the fuck i mean and it's weird because she has a i noticed early in our relationship that she has a strong disdain against kind of like like 90s dance type of music like that's why her and i get along so well well there is a contradiction in play though because i would you know she would come see me dj and i'd be playing you know like cool underground you know house music stuff where the drum sounds are maybe a little

little artificial sounding but that's sort of the idea and you know you're using these you know these drum machines from the 90s and the 80s that have like a very kind of tinny sound but then you can you know make that into something better and she would absolutely hate that which is you know a trait that you also share but then also she will i'll play her or she'll play a song like share do you believe in life after love And that is like one of her favorite songs of all time, maybe. And it's the epitome of just like cheesy 90s, 2000s kind of terrible drum music. But in a way that I like and appreciate. So I'm kind of like, you know, what's the deal, bro? Well, Jason, let me explain. So we broke up, yeah. Let me explain something to you, fam. When a chick came to see TJ DJ in his prime, it ain't about the music. It's about your ass up there smoking a cig in the zone looking hot, surrounded by fans. It doesn't matter what you're playing. That's a good point. I never came for the music. Yeah, the art of EDM-style DJing is not one-sided. It's not one-dimensional. There are a lot of attributes and facets in play, and the music often plays second fiddle. I mean, I would like to talk about friends of the show. It's actually about the vibes, man. Friends of the show and personal friends of yours to the EDM community, the Chainsmokers. Yeah, I love those guys. Those guys are in a lot of hot water. It's interesting because they remind me of us, you know what I mean, in some ways. You know what I mean? Please show me the through line, how that is pieced together. There's two regular white guys trying to do their thing. One is more talented than the other. One is better looking than the other. We'll let the fans decide who those people are in both cases. It's just an interesting parallel. I don't think we would want to expose.

our gigantic global fan base to COVID-19. Unless that's what they want. We're into some freaky shit like that is what I'm saying. But what is the check looking like? You know what I'm saying? Because it's like, if you're willing to die and I'm making money off it, that's on you. Yeah, I mean, I guess the chain smoker thing, even though that concert was for charity, sort of, it's kind of like, is it? You know, like, really, what is it worth? And I'm sure not all the proceeds went to it. So, you know, the Chainsmokers in the last two years have made, you know, tens of millions of dollars. You know, them doing this kind of, you know, Fyre Fest-style concert in the Hamptons. You know, after they give their cut to charity, what are they walking away with? You know, no more than $100,000, maybe? Do they need that right now? No, they don't need it, but the smokers are craving attention, dude. They've been locked up in their fucking Vegas penthouses for months, unable to perform. Think about that, what that does to you. Yeah, I know, but does it count as actually performing when it's a handicapped show like this? The same thing goes for any other type of live event. Is it worth doing it right now, or do we just wait because it's not the same? We'll find out when we announce our How Long Gone Live show in a parking lot in Glendale. Hopefully we get it locked in next week. You know how people are eating in the parking garage at the Galleria. It's going to be kind of something like that. No microphones, just kind of a lo-fi kind of kickback. You know what I mean? With us hosting and you guys can just ask questions and stuff. No mask if you don't want to. That's kind of up to you. Yeah, mask is a definite if you want to. This is not a cuck podcast, just to be clear. You know what I mean? We want our fans to be out there living their lives to the fullest. But, you know, I think the difference is with the Chainsmokers live performance in the Hamptons is that it was also sponsored by one of your personal friends.

um and his tequila brand uh jaw jaw jaw fuck jerry the memer fuck i thought you were gonna say my good friends at goldman sachs but yeah i am no those are my friends those are my friends bitch you ain't got friends in that pay grade yet you live in la bro look i i have i have the the apple credit card brought to powered by goldman sachs so i you know i get emails and stuff from them so i think we have a pretty good thing going but uh but ja ja ja ja tequila god damn it which is which is fuck jerry's tequila line which i assume they started after seeing the success that um the fat jew had with with his rosé company i was thinking i was thinking more they were inspired by another duo that we could compare ourselves to oh i know where you're going uh actor famous actor and and uh you know husband and father of of kaya Larger-than-life character. George Clooney and Randy Gerber, who is – what's it called again? It's called Casamigos. Casamigos. How could I forget? So I think that we are both somehow – we can be compared to the Chainsmokers and Casamigos, which I feel like are two iconic brands for us to align ourselves with. Yeah, we are like if the Chainsmokers also – rode like vintage motorcycles through chile which is like that's kind of the last piece of the puzzle that the that the smokies needed to complete their their their coolness you know that was the one thing that was holding them back exactly and they're also both really rich so i would like to point out that that is an attractive quality because i think you guys think we're kidding right now but you know these guys do have desirable qualities one is married to cindy crawford um Which is very cool. And who knows what the chain smokers are doing with those doors clause. That's a good point. You know what, Jason? Just thinking a little deeper here. There could be some brand synergy where it's possible that one of the chain smokers will have sex with Kaia Gerber at some point. It's very possible. It feels possible. I mean, if the right molly is procured, I think there's like a 40% chance that that goes down.

You know, everybody jokes, you know, nature is healing, ha, ha, ha. But to me... Nature is healing, ja, ja, ja. Continue. Yeah, if that were to happen, if a chain smoker and Kai Gerber were to enter a consensual sexual relationship, I think the world would feel pretty good about that. Yeah, that would be one of those telltale signs that, you know what, things might actually start to be going back to normal. Exactly. And I think that's something that we at How Long Gone... You know, if we just put that out into the world, who knows? You know what I mean? Like the power, you know, once it leaves our mouths, it goes directly to God's ears. Yeah, a lot of people might joke around about the power of, you know, asking the universe for what you want. And this is sort of, you know, willing a situation like that into existence. And, you know, that's a power that we have inside of us. Moon Juice, go ahead and sponsor the podcast at any point. Shit, that is a... That is goals AF to have Moon Juice sponsoring this pod shit. Just two LA chicks doing a pod drinking some powders. You know what I mean? That could be us, bro. If we had a fucking ashwagandha promo code, I would fucking... Oh, my Lord. That's something I could actually tell my grandkids about. You know, when people say, you know... Exposure doesn't pay the bills. Mushroom powder pays the fucking bills. Yeah, the profit margins on Mushy is fantastic right now. I was watching a Netflix show that I wanted to recommend to our viewers called Dating on the Spectrum. Are you familiar with this? I'm familiar with it from you banging the group chat with it last night. You know, it's a show that is not for everyone. You've got to be in the mood for it. But if you put yourself into the right mindset of it, it's a wild show. It's just a dating show. It's like Indian matchmaking or any other dating show like this, but everybody is on the autism spectrum. And you experience every emotion possible watching it. I really suggest tuning in.

It's making me wonder who else around me, myself included, might have some type of spectrum tendencies going on. Look, man, I don't know what the fuck is going inside in that fucking little peanut head of yours. Deadass. Autistic people often commend it as geniuses. No one said you were a genius, bitch. Keep it moving. We do have a guest today. our guest who is running 10 minutes late so we can continue to talk a little bit more oh i'm sorry i didn't see that email um it's all right don't worry about it okay well i mean i talk to you a lot so i'm kind of good but i guess we can keep going um yeah well shit i got a zit yesterday drop that skincare routine chris shut up dude jesus christ you're fucking are you uh I feel like you're plugging Netflix a little more than I feel comfortable with on this podcast. Are you, I mean, do you want me to fucking talk about Hulu more? What's going on? No, I'm just saying, if we're going to juice these streaming sites with our powerful network, I would like to see a little fucking check from these losers. You want some Netflix payola? Well, yes, I'm very, you know, I'm pro payola. I'm pro HGH in sports and I'm pro payola in the media for the same reason. Why just sports? Pro HGH all through aspects of life. Okay, that's fine too. All of this works for me. I'm down for all of it. I just think it's appropriate. And I think that letting people Frankenstein themselves into something insane they never thought was possible could lead to more interesting times in this country. It's making me wonder if... I mean, yeah, people have a lot of arguments that way about having... you know medicine sports medicine hgh steroids whatever performance enhancing drugs be be allowed in in sporting competitions as you know and just have it be a separate league like here's the nfl and then here's the nfl on drugs and you know then it's a level playing field and then you get to really see some fucked up shit i'm are you down i mean

Athlete to athlete, are you down? I am down, but I am down for the spectacle of it, but it does have a little bit of, you know, it makes me fear that if that happens, then what happens next in terms of like, you know, physical competition as a means of entertainment versus like the death of sportsmanship type of thing. where I guess it kind of felt the same way when Ultimate Fighting first came around, where you're like, this is sick. I have inherently in my human DNA the desire to watch people try to kill each other and bloody themselves in a fight. But then it's also like, what's going to happen next when this isn't good enough and the world is in a dystopian, dark place? I think we're there. How much further until... You know, here's the NFL and everyone also has a gun or a sword. Honestly, the NFL with guns is a very interesting modern idea, Jason. Yeah, that's the real modern warfare, bro. So basically, who has the guns? All the players or just the quarterback? That's actually a great question. We should really flesh this out a little bit because I think at this point, sports are so desperate to come back that we need to twist it with it. The stakes are a little higher than just COVID death. How about murder? Be like, yeah, we're sad and upset that there's nobody in the stands and we've replaced it with cardboard cutouts of season ticket holders and sitting shoulder to shoulder with plush life-sized panda bears and other animal creatures in the stands. That is canceled out and justified by the addition of firearms. And I think that makes a lot of sense to me. Very cool. Because, I mean, the NRA is flush with cash for sponsorship. So this is a pretty ESPN, NRA, NFL. That's three organizations that I can fucking stand behind. So that's perfect. And if we're afraid of the barstool-ification of sports in the world.

We have to fight fire with fire and strike before they have a chance to take over and just move beyond the Barstool narrative and then go straight into just murder, you know? I think Barstool has walked us up to that line, but we're ready to cross it as a people. I don't know if you saw this yesterday, but I got doxed on Twitter. You got doxed for your... inflammatory Gwen Stefani tweets. For an innocuous, funny tweet about Gwen Stefani and her fucking brickhead husband, Blake Shelton. People will, I mean, you know, people will come for you on social media for really anything right now. So when you are just straight up insulting beloved famous people, you gotta know it's coming. You know, Jason, you're right. I should be educated as a Twitter power user that some refer to as a blue check. Honestly, I forget that people don't agree with me on stuff like this. It's so clear that Blake has negatively influenced our Queen Gwen, and I just thought everyone agreed. I didn't even think twice about it. Well, you know, welcome to life in the silo, Chris. Well, I know. I live in it. I know. Yesterday, to prove my point more of that, that people can get upset about much, much less on social media, I did a terrible tweet that I'll probably delete. That tweet is fire. I'm a grown-ass man. How do you expect me to watch something called Lemony Snickets? and like people people would you know people it did okay people responded you know with the funny joke here and there blah blah blah but there was you know somebody was saying like well yeah you know if you were a grown-ass man then you'd be able to appreciate you know a great story oh my god oh my god fucking dork so that's you know you know a lemony snicket is a movie from whatever 10 years ago that's based on a childhood fairy tale book

that i've never even seen before and nobody has talked about and somebody is like you know what i need to set this person straight about this movie from 10 years ago i'm so tired of these fucking dorks man it's it's like it's really hard out here but i saw also that the the uh the woman who reviewed the new taylor swift's album for pitchfork and gave it a fucking 8.0 got fully doxed like for shit to change her phone number and because it wasn't high enough Yes, and former guest of the show and friend of the show, John Carmonica from the New York Times, his home address and phone number are in the comments on his story about Taylor Swift that was also positive. Oh. It's insane. It's fucking insane. Like, fandom, I just don't understand what the end game is of these people. Like, it's just, it's demented. Damn. I mean, who would have been able – did they have any of this mentioned in Orwell's 1984, any of the fandom stuff? Because I don't think it's something that anyone could have really predicted would become one of the viruses of our current human race. Well, it's going to really negatively affect criticism, which I think is something that a lot of people think is stupid anyway. you know like a lot of people don't understand the necessity for it um and and i think that is luckily there's people like john i mean you know john's dealt with this a million times and joe who's been on the show has dealt with it too because if you say that nikki minaj song is bad you basically have to log off for two weeks you have to strap on the flak jacket because it's it's green green lit at any moment for you exactly but i i just Reading about music and the personalities behind it and what it all means is such a joy of mine that I feel like I need to protect it with my life, Jason. Yeah, I don't think there is any hope in sight for people to somehow learn to appreciate criticism again. I think that ship has sadly sailed and it's only going to get worse. You're right. It's interesting to me.

I don't know if this is an age thing or what, but I think I'm able to be critical of someone I'm a fan of. You know what I mean? Everything that somebody puts out, that's what's so interesting. These people are like, anything Taylor Swift does is amazing and perfect, and there's no conversation. Anything Nicki Minaj does is perfect, and there's no conversation, which is an insane way to live at any age. Yes. Everyone knows that real criticism can be really helpful, but... I think maybe it's just been clouded where, you know, everyone has received criticism, you know, negatively at some point in their life and hopefully have found a way to realize that it was helpful. So I think that deep down people know it and they know that it's a good thing and it helps. But now they have the ability to just remove that negative part from their life somehow. They hacked humans to not have that. be an issue anymore. That discomfort of somebody telling you something that you did was not the best you've done. Where are we going, bro? Thank God we have podcasting. Good point. Let's talk about our guest today. Leon Nafak. It's a tough word to pronounce, but he is the He's the previous host and creator founder of the very popular podcast Slow Burn. He has his own new podcast now called Fiasco, which is kind of a similar vibe. But he comes from the podcasting elite world of investigative journalism and episodic shows. Couldn't be more opposite from the style of podcasting that we do, which I think is really amazing. Is this our first podcast elite guest? Yeah, I think so. Yeah, it is. I mean, we've had other podcasters on before who were. No, this is top tier podcast. This is Harvard grad podcast. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. This is, we got a TV deal. Yeah. I mean, Slow Burn, you know, it really is like top five podcasts in the world right now. Like not in its category or not, you know, for a certain type of subject, but just like. Offer it. Period. Period.

Damn, that's big fire. So, yeah, cross our fingers. Hopefully we don't fuck this up. I know. I hope he's nice to us. I feel like we could get ended here. All right, let's give him a call. All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Quince. Jason, the temps are warming up. It's getting hot out there. Summer always changes how I get dressed. I need pieces that feel lighter, more breathable. And they're just easy, but, you know, still put together. I don't want to look like a slob. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. You know, they focus on high-quality essentials that feel and look amazing. Breathable linen and soft organic cottons. Well-made basics, but without the luxury markups. That rare balance where everything feels elevated. but still effortless. Yeah, Chris, linen season is here. I wore a linen blazer to dinner a few nights ago in the warm California sun. But, you know, you got that Italy trip coming up this summer and quality European linen pants and shirts. Upgrade that look starting at just $34. You know, if you get a nice linen suit, a little t-shirt underneath it, some chill shoes, you're looking good, but you're staying cool. The inside of your special areas are nice and dry as you turn up with your besties. So elevate that summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com slash how long for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns, even on a nice holiday now available in Canada. That is Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash how long. That'll get you free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince punto com slash how long. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Squarespace. Obviously, Jason, you and I spend a lot of time on the World Wide Web. So do our peers, our listeners, our friends, our colleagues, maybe even your parents if they're freaky. And if you're doing anything in the world. writing, taking pictures. I do topless boxing. You need a website. Exactly. A website that works, that does what it's supposed to do, that allows you to be creative, but also business-minded. Jason, there's one place to go for that, Squarespace. Yeah, Chris, I'm over here. I'm modifying calculators and putting Claude inside of them so you could cheat at school. And I just want a place where I could have everything all in one place. I can have the SEO tools.

So those future graduates can find me and, you know, I'm able to accept quote unquote donations for my services that might be gray area. You know what I mean? And then email campaigns. Hey, I got a new, you know, 2.3 version upgrade. Boom, boom, boom. Get the analytics going. Raise some money. Show your investor all of your cool analytics of what's going on. They're going to want to get in early, and we can use Blueprint AI to make your website look as professional as your competition, if not more. Head to squarespace.com slash howlong for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use offer code howlong to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain. oh this is huge for me personally this episode of how i'm gone is brought to you by task rabbit oh baby let me tell you something this is this is not a joke i use task rabbit a lot because i can't do anything you need you need some art hang hung task rabbit you need you need a you need a fucking something put together a cabinet gotta reach reach that cheese grater on the top shelf task rabbit anything anything you need task rabbit can take care of it for you and i mean it How it works, TaskRabbit connects you with skilled taskers in your area. They can help you move. They can assemble furniture, repairs, yard work, mounting, and more. You can search for a tasker based on cost, skill set, availability, and past client reviews so you know exactly who's showing up and can have confidence that they know what they're doing because taskers have assembled over 3.4 million pieces of furniture, completed 700,000 home repairs. handled 1.5 million moves, and the numbers are just going up, Jason. Yeah, throw a little money at the problem. It's not so expensive. And that job that you really don't want to do is something that another person out in the world is very good at doing and would gladly do it in exchange for a little bit of money. So when life happens, your to-do list grows. Get ahead of it now and get $15 off your first task at TaskRabbit.com or grab the TaskRabbit app using promo code

How long? Taskers book up faster, especially for same-day tasks. So book trusted home help today. That is $15 off your first task using promo code howlong with the TaskRabbit app or at TaskRabbit.com. It'd be great if you could go in the closet and close the door and turn the light off, if you don't mind. You joke, but that's what we've been, we've been doing these seasons, you know, that are all constantly, that constantly, you know, we get us interviewing people like in their 80s. And we have to like, since COVID, we've had to like, you know, we haven't made anyone go into their closet, but like we do have to like ask them to like download a specific app on their phone and like sit in the particular way and like hold the phone in a particular way. It's not easy. Are you an 80 year old? No, dude, that's that's a different job than you signed up for. Are you are you guys like doing the thing where you send equipment to people so that there's like a consistency across sound? Yeah, so we have we haven't been doing that so far. Basically, like we it doesn't matter. It's a boring, boring technical thing that I don't really understand myself. But we like bought a device that kind of like lets them call us on their phone. But it sort of sounds like studio. Whoa. Yeah, could you send us a link to that after the show? Is there a promo code that you guys have? Because this is literally built for us. I think we paid like three grand for it. Okay, we're out. Never mind. We haven't signed a TV deal yet, so let us catch up. Just give us a second. Yeah, no, I mean, it was a big expense, but it doesn't make everything a lot easier because there are these apps you can... you know, download on your phone, turns the, turns the microphone into like somehow makes it better. I don't know how that was, how that even works, but, um, you know, do you have any interest? Cause on this podcast, you know, the split of duties.

is based on who's better at what, you know what I mean? So I have absolutely no technical know-how, and I have no interest in learning about it. Do you find yourself more interested or less interested now that it's like your job all the time? I'm definitely interested. It's usually a matter of whether I have time to learn something. I like the equivalent of how in tech there's non-technical founders. It's just like the doofus who had the idea and then he has to surround himself with people who actually know what they're doing. That's like me. I was a print reporter and I kind of found my way to audio, but I don't know how to use Pro Tools. It's like it's a real... Hell yeah, Leon. Gangster, baby. I really depend on other people. Yeah, but that's doofus in the most ideal situation, I would argue. When you don't have a pickup truck, nobody asks you to help them move. When you're bad at everything, you can just be you and you're good. It's the singer who doesn't play an instrument or write lyrics. Do you ever yearn for this more casual style of podcast where you just grip it and rip it, improvised style? Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think I never, I never really, I was, I was, I was never on a talk show. Um, you know, I just went straight into like narrative documentary. Um, but, uh, it's not, I mean, I don't know. I don't think it's like the thing I'm best at is a contemporaneous, you know, talking. I think I, I, I do better if I can think about it ahead of time, but, um, I definitely, you know, we have other shows that we, that are, that our CEO produces that, um, that are more like that. We have one about, uh, It's called five to four and it's a, the tagline is the podcast about how much the Supreme court sucks. And it's every week. It's like these three leftist lawyers talking about, uh, a different Supreme court case from history that was terrible for one reason or another. And it's a talk show, you know, it's like they're, they're making, making jokes and, and, and, you know, interacting with each other. Uh, and so, uh, you know, I, I get, I have that outlet too. I think it's super interesting to get people.

like a lawyer involved in the medium because i think we're so used to being like comedians or journalists that i think opening it up opening it up to like new people that have voices and are very comfortable doing it but are actually experts in something is is an interesting approach i feel like i don't see that very often i hadn't thought of it that way but i appreciate it and i agree you know you know what i mean though it's like every i feel like i feel like that's something that's kind of special um and that that could could stand out if the topic is interesting enough and lawyers lawyers do be talking so it does yeah that's true lawyers literally talk for a living more than more than a radio host so i i do think they are are apt to do it um so um you right now you are uh in the middle of releasing your new season of fiasco we're like in the middle of uh of finishing it and we're going to start releasing it in uh in August, on August 13th is when the first episode comes out. Um, and yeah, it's a, it, it, we're like, we're finishing the last episode, uh, right now. How are you feeling scheduling wise, bro? You guys, you guys good? Yeah. I mean, you know, it can always be better. Um, I feel like, I feel like every, every, every season we've made starting with, with, you know, the first two seasons of slow burn, uh, there's like, a bigger chunk of the, or, like, every season, like, a smaller chunk of the overall production schedule is, like, nightmarish, you know? So, first season of Slow Burn, it was, like, the whole thing was kind of, like, just, like, teeth. What was the expression? White knuckle? White knuckles? Yes, yes, yes, yes. You're laying the track while the train is moving. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's exactly right. And so, you know, the second season was, like, a little bit less, and now it's a lot less. Now it's, like, sort of concentrated. It's, like, two months out of a six-month. you know, cycle, which is a lot more manageable, but we're definitely, we're definitely in those two months right now where, you know, a lot of, a lot of late nights and weekends and all that. How many people do you have on, on staff over there helping out? Yeah, that's, that's what I was going to ask actually. What's the, what's the squad looking like? So the fiasco squad is, um, five full-time, uh, producers. Is that right? No, sorry. I was, it's hard to, it's hard to count whether someone's full-time or part-time and it's, uh,

because it's the main thing they're doing, but it might, they might have other jobs on the side, but anyway, let me take that again. Yeah, no, but we don't even, it's not that though. It's, it's, uh, I guess that is it, isn't it? Yeah. I guess that is basically it. Um, you know, so, so we have, we have, we have me, we have our executive producer, Andrew Parsons. Uh, we have two producers who, uh, started with us pretty much right away. Um, and then the fifth person I was talking about was, Someone who doesn't work on Fiasco, she's full-time, but she works on several other shows. And so then we have a part-time fact-checker, we have a part-time archival researcher. And for this season, we had two additional producers who helped us, who came in just for this third season. And when you're putting this team together, is that... Does that happen kind of – do you get a budget from – this show is on Luminary, so do they give you a budget that you're able to hire everyone from? Exactly. Okay. I'm kind of fascinated by how that side of everything works. I didn't know if you assemble the team and then they just buy it off of you or if they give you a production budget. Yeah, no, that's exactly how it works. They basically signed us for a distribution deal that comes with a certain amount of production. uh, per year. Uh, and so we were able to sort of spend that how we like. Um, and, uh, that's where, you know, that's where the salaries come out of and paying for archival research and equipment and all that stuff. I love hearing about how real podcasts work, Jason. I'll tell you what, man, if we, if we hired a fact checker, we'd be out of business. Yeah. Fact checker is not what we need right now. That's not something I'm interested in. So then at that point, you can outsource all of the cheap labor and then pocket that money if you were to follow the business model of making movies or television or music. Wait, sorry. I don't think I understood the question. It was more of the world of getting... If you're producing an album...

you get that production budget and as long as it gets done, that money is spent however you want kind of thing. Do you feel inclined to be more responsible with that production budget because it's a podcast and a little more, I don't know. I feel like I would be less inclined to just blow the advance, as it were, for a podcast versus recording an album. Leon, do you have a Porsche or a Ferrari? That's kind of what I was getting at. Sorry. No, we definitely don't cut corners on the budget. We do spend all of it, for sure, on the show. Well, you know, they teach you that if you don't spend it all, you won't get as much next time. So that's good. That's good business practices. Yeah, there you go. So what is the third season about, if you want to walk us through it? Yeah, so the third season, so in the past we've done scandals. We've done these political scandals. We did Watergate. We did the Clinton-Lewinsky impeachment scandal. We did the Iran-Contra scandal most recently. And this is, I've been saying, if it sounds rehearsed, this is what I've been saying. This is about a different kind of scandal. It's about school segregation in public schools. And it tells a story of specifically how the process of desegregation played out in Boston. I don't know if you guys, does the Boston busing crisis ring any bells for you guys? I heard it when I was researching you for this podcast, so I would love for you to explain it a little bit. Yeah, the only thing that we really know is that Boston is extremely racist. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, so part of the reason you know that, part of the reason you have that impression, I think, is the story we're telling in the show. It's like these years in Boston when, Black activists kind of succeeded at putting the problem of school segregation front and center sort of in the city's consciousness. And it caused an enormous backlash on the part of, you know, white parents and white students who didn't want to go along with a desegregation plan. They didn't want to go to school with black kids. They didn't want to send their kids to schools in black neighborhoods. And, you know, what became known popularly as the Boston busing crisis is this period of.

a few years in the mid 70s when uh when when when desegregation was happening in boston when bus you know when busing uh when children were bused from one school that was in a you know let's say a white neighborhood and bus to a school in a black neighborhood and vice versa um it went really badly in boston it was it was it was years of you know terror you know racial terrorism uh violence um kids you know not going to school um and it was a real i think you know a real trauma for boston and it sort of became known as sort of you know, the poster child for why busing as a means of desegregating schools doesn't work. And it became very powerful in that way because, you know, in a way people sort of gave up on desegregation. Like our schools are incredibly segregated today and liberals, you know, don't even really talk about it that much because everyone is so haunted by the specter of busing. And so in our podcast, you know, we tell the story of how desegregation became. a top issue in Boston and how the actual desegregation plan was carried out and why everyone got so angry. How many episodes is it? Seven. Is this something, how familiar were you with this, the crisis, or did you discover this, like researching a concept for this season? So I didn't. know anything about it um i don't i don't mind admitting that because i feel like i feel like i have as i do every time with these with these seasons like i basically know nothing uh going in um i know about as much as like i hope our audience knows um which is to say like maybe i've heard the phrase boston busing crisis maybe you know for past seasons like i sort of knew the deal with nixon and watergate i kind of knew there were tapes you know but it was just like these kind of dim you know like dim like objects in my head that I didn't know how they went together. And so I try not to, you know, I try to embrace that and sort of use myself as like a, as a, what do you call it? Like a surrogate for the audience. Cause I, I sort of am able to imagine someone kind of like myself who's, you know, well enough educated, but like doesn't, doesn't know the details of these extremely important events in history. I think that's the, I think that is a,

a common reality among like people that are smart and engaged. You just can't know everything. You know what I mean? And there's just stuff that we all miss. So I do think that, that approaching it that way probably is more appealing to the listener too, you know? Yeah. I feel like it allows us to like predict like what's going to feel novel or what's going to feel familiar. You know, if we just sort of use ourselves as like the barometer, there's no way to obviously predict that, but whatever, you know, how. You're going to get experts listening, you're going to get people who never heard of it listening, so you can't please everybody. True. And that's sort of a little bit different than the slow burn style, which were news stories that were a lot more publicly known, I'm assuming? I think it's pretty similar in terms of what kind of stories we're looking for. We're looking for stuff that maybe zooms in a little further than what you read about in your history book. You might hear an interview with someone who's 25 years old and working as a lawyer behind the scenes on the Iran-Contra inquiry. Someone who was doing the dirty work or the gopher work. We try to talk to both the central players in the stories we cover. Someone like Linda Tripp, who we interviewed for the Clinton podcast. But we also try to find people whose names aren't... aren't well-known people who are there and who are watching this stuff unfold from up close, but, uh, have not necessarily given a million interviews about it. Has it been super challenging doing this during, during COVID or have you guys been able to kind of just, you know, like you said, download a program and kind of make it happen? It fucking sucks. No, it's horrible. Uh, and we, and I, I mean, Andrew, our, our, our EP has done an amazing job of like getting all our systems up and running and, I think we're getting really good sound, uh, in the end and we're getting, you know, uh, we're, you're not able to tell, I think in five years that this show was made during the pandemic, but, um, but it's, it's just a pain in the ass, man. It's just like, you gotta, you gotta, as I was saying before, like you, you have to walk your interview subjects through the process of downloading certain apps and like holding the microphone a certain way. Um, in some cases, yeah, we're like, we're, we're sending people recording kits in the mail. Um, everything just takes longer. Like, you know,

you can't doing, doing interviews over the phone just isn't great in the first place. Um, or, you know, even over zoom, which we do sometimes. Um, so it just, it just makes everything a little harder. We've had to, you know, we've had situations where we've gotten bad sound, um, for one reason or another, we had one guy who, uh, his mic was backwards, um, when he was recording. And, uh, you know, we, we, we, we didn't do it afterwards. We're like, we gotta, you know, we gotta ask him if he'll do this again. And he, um, he, in the end, he, he graciously said that he would, and he did. But he was kind of taken aback. You want to do that again? I would literally just quit doing the podcast if something like that happened. Did it hit the same the second time around? Yeah, it was better. Oh, that's good. It always is, Chris. We've had the situation three times. We've had to do three interviews twice. And each single time, every single time, it's better the second time. So I'm always happy we did it. Not just the sound. The shit they say is better. I go in the booth. I don't write anything down. I do it once and I leave. So I don't know. You know, I don't know if that would work for me. You know what I'm saying? As an artist. But I guess that second time around, it makes sense, I guess, because they're more comfortable, especially if this is something new to them. It always surprises me because I would always assume that it would be worse. I would always assume it would feel a little rehearsed or like they're just like trying to remember what they said the first time. But for some reason, yeah, people remember more details. Maybe they feel like. Maybe it feels to them like they have to give me something new that they didn't give me the first time. Oh, yeah, that's a good point. That's a good point. I don't know. I think it's that, and I think it's just being comfortable because you already know exactly what's going to happen. I know stand-up comedians will record three or four different live shows of the same material over and over again and then pull the best. the best stuff from, from each one. I think it's just like getting over the hump of like, I'm being interviewed, you know, for a big podcast right now. This is weird and nervous and, and that's gone. When we, when we started doing this during quarantine and, and over the phone was the only way to do it. I started to actually think that over the phone made people feel looser and it was a little more casual.

versus in person. I guess it depends on the subject matter being discussed then. Yeah, definitely. I think for us it actually kind of works, which I was surprised to think. Thank God. Did you guys have a studio and everything built out that you kind of have to put on ice for now? Yeah, there's a studio sitting in a co-working space in Gowanus right now. They're all in Gowanus, aren't they? Yeah, a bunch of them are. We're across the street from another podcast company, and there's another one upstairs from us. Yeah, there's a bunch in Gowanus. But yeah, I don't know. I've been recording in my closet, actually. And right now, I'm in an Airbnb with my wife and a bunch of our friends, including some of your friends, Joe and Carrie. I love the synergy. I love the synergy there, Leon. I love the synergy. They were like, don't mention this on the podcast. I was like, I think... How can we not mention Two Legends when it's organic? I mean, that would be disrespectful, I would think. That would be disrespectful. Go ahead, Chris. Are you guys basically like a writer's camp? Is an album going to come out of this? Or what's the vibe? What's the vibe? No, it was actually a lot more like that in April, May. Because my wife Alice and I were in Rhinebeck with the two of them. And there, Alice was working on her book. Joe was working on his book. I was working on the podcast. Carrie was working on pieces. And it was like, yeah, it really did feel like a little colony. Sounds like a damn Wes Anderson movie going on. It does. That's a Netflix Wes Anderson exclusive coming soon. I can see it now. Damn. How do you feel about transitioning from a writer in the print world into podcasting and then finding some pretty high success financially speaking specifically in the world of podcasting? Did you think this was going to be something that you can not necessarily get rich off of?

have a pretty healthy living doing? No, I mean, I also don't know how rich you are. No, I mean, I think the thing that made me feel like it was the right move was that I remember when I was growing up, or not when I was growing up, when I was in my early 20s working in journalism out of college, I had this fantasy. I think a lot of people my age did that we were all going to write for The New Yorker. you know, write these long pieces, you know, narrative journalism, uh, you know, works narrative journalism that were going to come out twice a year. And, and then, you know, the, the reality is like, those jobs are few and far between now. And, uh, you know, I, I sort of was at slate, I was writing for the web and, uh, that meant often, like there were weeks when I was, you know, waking up and like wondering like, what's, what's like, what's the thing that I will be able to. put in onto the internet today that will like make a little bit of a, you know, getting a little bit of attention or, you know, be a little bit different than what other bloggers are doing. Um, and some people are really good at that. And I'm, I'm don't think I'm one of them, or at least I'm not, it's not like what I'm best at. And I think when I found podcasting, it was like, Oh, this is the, this is a version of the thing that I imagined as a 20 year old, which was, you know, right. You kind of spending like six months inside one story that you're really kind of building from, you know, whole cloth rather than, sort of just reacting to whatever everyone else was talking about, which just like didn't, didn't, didn't, didn't make me, uh, do it. You know, I just wasn't doing anything good. Um, uh, and so this is better. I think like, this is like, this is a kind of work I'm, I'm better at. So I felt, you know, there was the, I felt lucky that I found it. Um, cause it wasn't obvious to me that that's what podcasting was going to offer me. Yeah, that's, I mean, but you're still, I mean, you're scripting a lot of stuff and you still get to write obviously. So that's part of it. big part of the process. So it's like a happy, it's kind of the marrying of worlds for you. Do you remember the first podcast that you listened to Leon? Uh, it was probably one of those slate shows, uh, like slate political gap fest or culture gap. I mean, they started so much earlier than everybody else. Yeah. Um, and for, for some narrative podcasts, I'm probably, I'm probably serial, honestly. Um, I, yeah, I've been listening to,

I've been listening to Radio Narrative, Radio Lab. I guess Radio Lab was a podcast before it was. Maybe Radio Lab was actually the first time that I heard a long audio story. So you don't listen to Joe Budden every week or just five months? I don't know. I just get it aggregated on hotnewhiphop.com. I just get the highlights. Chris, are you still listening to Joe Budden? I was actually at a friend's last night, our friend Emil, and he was talking about the Joe Budden podcast and how he thinks they might be getting an Apple deal, which was because Apple, obviously, trying to keep up with Spotify. You know what I mean? But the Joe Budden podcast is good, and I stand behind it. It sounds like Leon stands with me. So, Jason, you're the odd man out here. I mean, I just never listened to it. I never thought to give it my attention. I think that the narrative, I think there's just, there's two moods in the world and the serious narrative, really well-produced podcast is one and shooting the shit is the other. And there's like kind of no in between for me. And Joe Budden is that good at shooting the shit? Yes, he is. He really is. But I do think that because it's like, I think when you make a podcast, do you find yourself listening anymore? Or are you kind of like, I'm good. I listen too much. I have to think about the shit too much. It's more the latter. I kind of stop listening, especially when we're in this stretch that I'm in right now. For sure, for sure. I just can't listen to other stuff. Are you listening to music? Yeah, not even. I got to be honest, not even. Not even the Headspace app? Not even the Headspace app. Damn, bro. Not even the Harry Styles headspace reading? You're fucking up, bro. I still get songs. Joe and Carrie play me songs. I still hear some things that are new. I don't know. We started listening to a lot of John Prime in that house that I mentioned before. Good vibe. I'm with that. I do think that when you're working, especially writing, it's difficult to listen. For me, at least, it's difficult to listen to.

like music that I know with like lyrics that I'm familiar with, it kind of takes me out of it a little bit. Um, but I, I think that everybody, you know, everybody does it different. Yeah. Like I haven't even listened to the new Taylor Swift album. Like I, I, I, I, I would have thought I would have gotten, gotten to it by now, but it hasn't happened. Okay. Leon, we'll give you an hour and we'll just call you back and then we'll do it. We'll do another 30 minutes on the, on the Taylor Swift. With stuff like that, it feels so urgent, but also that conversation, to be honest, online, that conversation is basically over already, is the reality of how fast things move. It carried on through the weekend, and it's already petering out, and then by the end of the week, people have moved on completely, which is, I think, the beauty of this approach to treating podcasting like television and episodic style. I think is a really interesting way to do it. And it makes sense with what you guys are doing. Um, but with stuff like what we do and some of the stuff I listened to, it feels like you have to do it every week or more to keep people entertained and like engaged. Um, but man, I wish we could do this shit seven times, Jason. Just on the day. No, not every day. Just totally. just seven times seven times seven times every three months that that's a good fucking schedule for me that leaves me a lot of time to exercise see friends yeah but people who produce podcasts that have seven episodes spend so much more time working no i know i know i know i know did you grow up did you grow up were you a big music head yeah yeah I think, and I haven't clicked on this out loud, maybe I've stopped listening to music the way I used to, but you guys have probably heard people say that on the show before. I mean, just given the age we all are. Yes. Even up until a year and a half ago, I would have these playlists that I would make on iTunes that were just like the season and the year. And so I would just add songs, do songs that I heard that I liked onto that playlist while that season was happening. So I would get like...

You know, summer of 2016, there's like 45 songs on there. And then you have fall of 2015, and there's like 40 songs on there. And they're, you know, they're little time capsules, and they're the songs I want to listen to at the time. But like, for the last year, I've just been adding to the same playlist from whatever it was, like winter of 2019. And I'm not adding enough that it's worth making a new one. And you don't even have kids yet, do you? Slow down. I don't even have kids yet. Just imagine what the listenership will do. I'm sorry that Jason is acting like your mother. I apologize for him. But I do think that keeping up with new music, I think because I'm on the internet so fucking much, it's kind of easy for me. But if I had to do, if I operated the way you had to operate and kind of like really get in and like do something the way you're doing it, I think it's hard to keep up. It moves so fast. And it's like, how much can you care? You know what I mean? And I think as you get older as a music fan, the amount of music that you actually like and want to listen to, it goes down. And I think it's just harder to find. It's more work. Were you a, Leon, were you a hip hop head or were you a punk hardcore type? Those are the only two you can choose. I had times of both. I mean, I definitely started out listening just to rock music, and Nirvana was my favorite band from third to sixth grade, probably. And then there was a period in middle school I listened to ska and punk, which I learned about at summer camp. Wow, I would love to know which hottie introduced you to Ska at summer camp. That's a whole podcast in itself. It was a hottie, but it was indirect. These two girls that I was in summer camp with were... Actually, this is funny. I remember one of them had loved this fucking band that she talked about all the time that sounded so exotic to me that I'd never heard.

And I thought it must mean that she was so cool. And the band was the Barenaked Ladies. But in my mind, she was like, you know, she just had this taste, you know, on a different level than me. I had no idea who the Barenaked Ladies were. But she and her friend, like, hung out with the two guys on our floor who were really into punk. Like, one of them, I remember, had his guitar in his room with him. Like, he brought it with him when he came to camp. um the other one like was in was in the sky and he would go to the record store during like free free time and he would bring back new scotties and so that was like and because because those two girls were into those two guys i was like i gotta get it of course i gotta get up with scott you know wow wow damn yeah after summer camp after summer camp mistakes were made yeah but after summer camp i went to i went to the sky against racism tour uh hell yeah hell yeah And I saw that guy from my floor who was in the sky. And I saw him. I was like, yeah, I'm here. I'm here. That's right, bitch. I'm here. I love Scott, okay? Don't get it twisted. I love Scott. So did you grow up outside of Chicago? Yeah, yeah. In Oak Park, Illinois. Yeah, Chicago has a pretty rich musical history, though, as far as venues and bands and being able to see things. I feel like that's a pretty good city to grow up in. Yeah, there was a... you know there were venues that i remember like imagining like as these i don't know i i just wasn't allowed to go until i was a little older and so there were a couple times my my my dad would take me to a to a show or i remember there was one time uh oh god this is i forget who was headlining it might have been like it would have been like a less than jake or a catch-22 or a band like that maybe mustard plug oh yeah and so you leon goes deep I'm sorry. Less than Jake has some heat, though. I want to go on the record as saying less than Jake has some heat. I agree. For sure. Yeah. For sure. So we were going to that show for my best friend's birthday party. It was him and me and maybe three or four other kids. And his parents wanted to come with us because we were probably in seventh grade. He was maybe in sixth grade. And they didn't want us to go alone.

And it was 1997, I guess, or maybe eight. And the opening act was a band called Bowling for Soup. And they... No, I'm sorry. I'm speaking ill of Bowling for Soup. That was a different time. Sorry. Let me take that again. The opening act was a band called Sloppy Seconds, which I had never heard of before. Oh, man. Yeah. And they... They were playing their opening set. We were all there. My friend's parents were in the back. And the lead singer says in between songs, like, we want to dedicate this next one to the trench coat mafia of Columbine. And then the song was called Let's Kill the Trendy. And the chorus was Let's Kill the Trendies. And the parents just immediately were like, what the fuck is this? Where have you brought us? Should we leave? It was so brutal. Damn, that's really funny, actually. Jesus Christ. I mean, I've seen a lot of bands I would be embarrassed about, but Leon, you just named like seven in a row. That's like an impressive. Honestly, I'm impressed, dude. That's like less than Jake I saw many times, but partly because they're from Gainesville, Florida, and I'm from Atlanta. So there was like, you know, it's very close. So you just see a band like that all the time. I have three, three bros listening to this podcast right now who are like, oh my God, I can't believe these guys are talking about mustard plug right now. This is making my life. Jason, being from Orange County, Jason, you trying to be in denial of your Scott, I'm sure you have seen plenty. Yeah, Ska was around, but it was kind of like a mosquito. It was something that you had to deal with and not embrace, per se. Well, much like pop punk, though, Ska had an interesting flirtation with the mainstream, which is, I think, the period that you're talking about, where Mighty Mighty Ballstones had a top ten single. Were you also a swing dancer, Leon? No, no, no.

I was not. I never got into that. You were not a cherry popping daddy or anything like that. Thank God. No, I don't like that shit. I remember my dad we were in the car and I insisted on putting on Scott and he was like, son, this is a very emotionally limited genre of music. Damn. Dad hits you with the hammer on that. Was your dad a music guy? Was he, like, into good shit? Yeah, we have a funny history in terms of music. He, you know, so my family moved to America from Russia. I was five. My dad would have been, I don't know how old. Anyway, like, in his 30s. And he was, you know, he was a Russian guy. He and my mom, like, listened to... certain like russian folk and pop music in the house a little bit but there's this whole genre of russian music uh basically just like acoustic guitar and singing it's sometimes based on poetry anyway there's a lot of that in my house but then at some point my dad started listening to american pop and um he really got into it and he like he loved he loved what he called chick rock uh he loved like uh anything with a female he loved alanis morissette um he he loved uh like fiona apple um this is so your dad your your russian immigrant dad was like a lilith fairhead 100 yeah this is very cool this is very very cool and then he got really and then he like we like heard eminem on the radio and he was like i can't believe this like he was and he was lose yourself with the song and he just like he loved it he loved it i would play i remember there was like a summer or a year when Eminem was just like constantly releasing diss tracks, like the Benzino diss tracks and like the Ja Rule stuff. And there's a constant like MP3s I was downloading, you know, from onto like my Winamp or whatever. And I would play, I would just play him the new, the new ones every week. I would see him on Saturday, just play him to do Eminem. And he was really, he was really into it. He loved it. And he loved 8 Mile. I'm trying to find the line between like.

traditional russian music based on poetry and then the poetry of m&m that's what i think pops just likes good music period and it doesn't matter what how it chooses to show its form damn that is so hot he loved hot me here that was one that was like a gateway to pop like for real pop i mean i want to know you know if he if he's questioning the the intellectual capacity of ska music you know, hot in here is not really offering much either. That's true. I should have said that. Yeah, a full retort. But it's a little more fun, I guess. I think hot in here is a little more fun than Ska in general. I just remember he just couldn't believe it. He was like, I can't believe they're saying this stuff. The girl part. Yes, he was shocked by the content alone, and that reeled him in. Yeah, I think so. He found it fresh. That is an extremely cool story. I love that. Because my parents weirdly didn't really listen to music when I was growing up. Like, my dad to this day drives to work with silence. Yeah, I think before my dad got into music, he was really into Garrison Keillor. I remember he had Garrison Keillor box set tapes in his car. So this shit is in your DNA, bro. Yeah, this is in your DNA. Oh, yeah. Do you have an older brother or older sister? Yeah, I have a significantly older half-sister and a significantly younger half-sister. So the older one is on my mom's side. She lives in Boston. She's in her 40s, and my younger one is 19 and lives in Chicago. Shit. So did the older half-sister put you on to anything, or were you guys not close like that at that era? She did. She did. So remember, she was like 17 when she moved to America. I was five, which is a fabulous age to move. Yeah, 17 is jarring. 17 is hard, man. And I think, you know, a lot of the American culture that she sort of was into, you know, in front of me as a 17-year-old was stuff that she picked up in Moscow back in Russia. So she was really into, like, Pink Floyd. She was really into the Beatles, which I obviously got into also. She was into Enya. I never went there with her.

but but you have pink floyd the doors she really liked and but i think all the stuff was the stuff that was popular in russia well what i was about to ask what makes it to russia and why do you think that stuff is popular there it's a great question there's some really random things that are considered you know total classics there i think deep purple i think is like like disproportionately beloved in russia that is wild you're right that's insane i mean i think it's true like i'm in every country like i remember i was trying to do a story once on Avril Lavigne and how she was really big in Japan. Actually, it was about Avril Lavigne and a bunch of ska bands that were finding second life in Japan. They were still touring. The Japanese music listeners love buying CDs. They love buying special edition CDs. And so a ton of people who you will remember are still popular there. Anyway, in Russia, I think, yeah, it was a function of... I don't know. I mean, there's probably entire books written about this, about what got in. I was about to say, is it based on availability? i think so i think so i mean like wind of change is the new podcast uh from oh yeah yeah about the scorpions it's sort of about this like you know how certain things got past the iron curtain um but there's a lot you know in in like my alice always makes fun of me when i talk about uh certain books that like were considered total like my mom like taught me or certain total classics but like and they and they were among russian readers but in translation but not they're like barely they're barely barely celebrated here like uh The Bridge of San Luis Rey by Thornton Wilder was like, it was like the first thing I was supposed to read when as soon as I was like old enough. Not a book that like a lot of people know here. Yeah. That was your Moby Dick. Yeah, exactly. The quasi sequel to All Quiet on the Western Front called Three Comrades. uh, by, by, by Eric. Like I never, I read, I never read all quite much in front until high school, but I'd read three comrades as like a 10 year old. If we named, if we named our episodes, we would call this three comrades, but we, we don't, we don't, we don't do that. So, uh, unfortunately. Speaking of naming, uh, I've, I've always found that naming things like a podcast or something is, is usually almost the hardest part of it. Where do you, where do you rank on, on your ability to name things? Well,

Well, I will confess that Slowburn was not my idea. I think I liked it right away in my defense, but it was at the time the legal counsel at Slade came up with Slowburn. The legal counsel came up with it. What's that? The legal counsel came up with that. I'm sorry. I was asking, I was saying the legal counsel came up with that name. Yeah, yeah. Sorry. Yeah, exactly. The legal counsel came up with that name. Damn, bro. You work with the feds? We don't do that on the side. They're taking money out of the mouths of creatives like you, bro. Damn, man. That's really biting the hand that feeds. Slow Burn is a really good podcast name, though. It's excellent. I think that can kind of like... Oh, I wanted to ask you about... Yeah, I wanted to ask you about the TV deal, baby. Let's talk about Hollywood. Well, let me tell you real quick about the naming of Fiasco, which that's the thing we do now. And I love the name, and I think it's catchy, it's memorable, but what we didn't think about when we named it was that as soon as we started reaching out to people who were involved in certain stories that we were trying to tell, we'd say to them, hey, we want to interview you for this podcast about this thing that was part of your life. by the way that the show is called fiasco and uh it was like a really rude i just remember the moment when i like it took me like sitting down and writing the first like email request for an interview to like think about it it made me i was just like how did i not have thought about this and i just hadn't and so now every time we do it i gotta be like you know it started you know with the season on the 2000 election and the florida recount which we can all agree was a fiasco you know it's you know it's it's it can get tricky We have a show called Fucked Up Stories, and we wanted to see if you want to come on and tell your story. Can you just talk about your life? We'll give you an hour. Yeah, yeah, exactly. We really feel you embody the title of our show. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that the podcast television...

is still relatively new and pretty interesting to people. And I think that what you guys are making makes a lot of sense. And it's a pretty clear line for me to see. But how did that deal come about? And what was the workload for you as the creator? Yeah, so that came about while I was still at Slade. You know, I started getting emails from producers and some, you know, directors and other screenwriters and people who thought there was some adaptation potential there. Um, some people were interested in adapting it for, for like a scripted thing and other people were interested in adapting it for docu-series. Um, and so I, I had never really been on the receiving end of anything like that before. And so I turned to my buddy, Teddy Blanks, who designs all our artwork and, uh, also does screenwriting. Um, and he, gave me the name of his manager who managed him on his screenwriting. And I started talking to that guy, Steve. And Steve, the manager, sort of walked me through the process of setting up my own deal on the TV show where I could be an executive producer and I was the narrator. And he sort of walked me through it. And he ended up being the one to sort of steer me towards starting a business and leading Slate to start Fiasco. Oh, okay. Interesting. That's great. I didn't, well, what, how long did it take? Was it like really drawn out? I feel like it wasn't. What? The leading? The, the, the getting, going from podcast to television show, like the process of that. Oh yeah. I, yeah, it was pretty quick for sure. Um, I think the first season started coming out in late 2017 and the show, the TV show came out in May, uh, of wait, is that right? Is that right? Maybe March. I'm all my, my time is all messed up. I forget, but it came out, you know, it came out this year. Um, yeah, that's pretty fast. That's pretty fast. Yeah, it was fast. I mean, and, and, and we, you know, we, uh, the show, the TV show version came out earlier this year. And, um, I, uh, I, I like, wasn't sort of involved in like the day to day of like the booking of the guests and the, you know, I, I didn't go on the shoots, but I, I worked with, with, with the production company left, right.

the script, you know, and giving feedback on, you know, on outlines and stuff and, uh, did a bunch of, you know, line editing sort of while we're recording, uh, the narration. So yeah, it felt, it was weird. It was, I was weird to make a show, you know, called slow burn after I'd left slow burn, uh, and was doing another thing. Um, that's just sort of how, how it worked out. I, uh, sometimes getting that check can be confusing, bro. It's true, bro. We, we chase this bag at all costs. Yeah, like the brain has to catch up. I'm just glad you have an agent and a manager. I feel like you're really going to take Hollywood by storm in 2021. Thanks, man. I actually just have a manager. I think the manager is the new agent. Well, look, I mean, look, maybe. I mean, look, I know you want to save money on those fees because all these upstate writer camps aren't free. You know what I mean? So I know you got to save money on those fees. I respect that. You're not just a writer and a podcaster. You're also a guy who's making money. So you've got to really think about all that stuff. You know what I mean? You've got to really consider it all. And whenever we have a guest on the show who is in that situation of making money, Chris always does try to solicit their services and become their agent or manager. No, no, no. Apologies in advance. I just like to know, because I'm familiar with Teddy because of our former guest, Molly. Um, but I actually, I know his design work, but I did not know he was a screenwriter. So I learned something new. Yeah. In fact, uh, just today, uh, the show that he made, he and Alex Karpowski worked together and they, um, they made a, they made a, they made a show for, for, um, for FX that is like, um, sort of like a, uh, variety show where it's a bunch of shorts. And so they made a series of shorts for, for FX that, uh, the, the lead, uh, actors say got nominated for an Emmy for it. oh i love that teddy and alex road yeah amazing amazing amazing what's the show called uh oh jerome no okay oh jerome no i think you can watch it on hulu damn all these streaming services i just can't get confused we talk about i said this in the intro but we talk about these streaming services so much i need to get a fucking check from these guys like all we do

It's talking about these motherfucking streaming services. All we talk about. All everybody does is talk about streaming services nowadays when we have our social distance hangouts. You guys have ads, right? You guys get ads from them, right? We got ads, bro. We got some pretty. We had a Romans. We finally got a dick pill ad a couple weeks ago. I do those, too. I do those, too. I do those for the Supreme Court show. Five Four has dick pills? Yeah. Welcome to the big leagues, bro. I'm glad that you're swimming with us now. That makes sense, actually, because I feel like that show could veer to an older customer. You know what I mean? An older listener who may require the pills maybe even more than the young guys. The best way to cure erectile dysfunction is to never have it in the first place, and that's something that you would know if you read more than just the ad copy. I always have trouble. you know, they send you the ad copy and you, you know, you want to, you want to get, you want to do it right for them, but you also don't want to speak in the first person necessarily when you're talking about, talking about, you know, big pills. And so, you know, I always like very carefully like tweak the copy. So it's like, we all know how hard it is. Like, you know, talk about erectile dysfunction. Yeah. That's sort of a thing that I am fascinated with of like all the different ways that podcasters have, found a way to do ad reads. And sleep at night? Well, a lot of them, there's a real skill. It's more found on comedy podcasts, but the art of being able to successfully do an ad read for a product that you're clearly mocking or making fun of and still get away with it and still have them happy as a brand to hire you. I definitely couldn't pull that off. It's not something that everyone can do. We sort of flirt with it as well, but that's a true skill to have. We did a pretty good job on the Manscaped body hair trimmer this week, I think. Not the best CPM. Don't judge us on that one, Leon. We're just trying to impress you.

I thought Manscaped would work, but Dick Pills did the job. We're going to miss. Yeah. For Fiasco, it's on Luminary. Could you walk us through, I guess, sell us on Luminary as a hosting site? I'm familiar with it. We know about it, but what do you love about it? Yeah. I think people naturally have this reaction when they are told that the podcast costs money. why would I pay money for a podcast when I can get podcasts for free and I can get, you know, most good podcasts are free. Um, and I totally get that. And I think it, it, it, uh, it's one of those things that people got used to, got used to that you can't really, you know, break them up. And, and, uh, I think the luminary value proposition is that you're getting shows you're not getting anywhere else. Uh, you know, fiasco is the pitch to someone who, who doesn't have luminary, uh, but, but, maybe like slow burn is if you, you know, if you liked the first two seasons of slow burn, like the guy who made that and his team are all doing a new show somewhere else. And if you, if you want that bad enough, you know, if you're, if you, if you're, if you're enough of a fan that you are going to be willing to follow them to the new platform, I think it can work. And I think. there's a, there's a real, I'm like personally really rooting for it, you know, besides just for sort of personal reasons that I wanted to succeed. Besides my checking account, I'm also rooting for it. Yeah, I think eventually, you know, for everybody who pays for HBO happily, you know, that's saying, you know, I think Luminary will have that same success. Yeah, and the reason I'm like, the reason I like hope it works, not just for myself, is that like, I'm not sure that this really sort of expensive narrative audio documentary shows. like ours, like can be made on a advertising budget. Like you just, you just make a lot less and, and they're hard, you know, advertisers are hard to sell on a new property that, you know, so if you're launching a new, you know, a new narrative series, like it's gotta be a hit before anyone will, will bite on it because it's such a big, it's such a, it's such a big investment for any publisher to, to go in on a narrative audio doc that you look at, you compare the, you compare the revenue on that, you know, with like,

a show that comes out 52 times a week, um, and costs very little to make, it's, you know, it's obvious, uh, what you're going to do, um, if you're just trying to maximize your profits. And so to me, like, it would be great if subscription services, uh, you know, proved that, uh, this is, this is possible because rather, you know, I, I want to, I want, I want to see it work because I, I think if it doesn't, um, there's going to be fewer shows that, that, that sort of take that investment to make. What are your thoughts on Patreon? I think it's great. I think, again, it works better for shows that are coming out weekly. You really can build a community, I think, and a sense of interaction between the hosts and the fans. I think that's harder to do with a narrative show. I think it's still pretty intimate. I feel like they're with me in my head or I'm in their head, even though I'm telling them a story. But I think it's a little different. I think the loyalty maybe takes a different form. And I also think, obviously, Patreon is speculative, right? You kind of have to start it and ramp up, and hopefully you're making money by the end. With a show like ours, you kind of need that upfront investment, which is why Luminary was so kind of a lifesaver for us, because they were willing to write us a check for production. at the front end, and we were able to spend it, and then at the end we had a show. What do you have to provide to them in order to get that checked? Do you have to do a spec episode or just an outline or deck? That's exactly what I was going to bring up. No, none of that. They trust us to produce the show at our standard. But your resume, obviously, more glimmering than others. The proof of concept is already there for you having a successful show. Yeah, maybe. I guess I don't know how much of a hand they take with other shows, but my sense is that they're very hands-off because they don't see editorial as their value. They're not trying to be an editorial department. That's the other thing I always say when people make fun of Luminary or criticize them.

this is a company that's like taking venture capital money and like giving it to people to make, you know, new stuff and new ambitious stuff and not asking any questions. Uh, and like not looking over the shoulder. It's so rare. Like even, you know, just being on like calls with, you know, various, like whatever, like a network, you know, you just, you, you see how much more hands on, uh, money is in other, in other fields. And I don't know, it just, it makes me, it makes me grateful for it. And, uh, it makes me, you know, wish people knew that more, I guess. Well, thanks to shows like yours, I'm sure more people will come around. Yeah, I hope so. What do you think about the true crime podcast bubble that has sort of been going on for the last couple years? Do you think it will be popping at any point? Oh, I don't know. Seems like no, right? Look at how long Law & Order was popular. Why do white women love true crime so much? We're really trying to get to the bottom of this important issue. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I suppose we tried to capture some of what people like about true crime, especially in the Nixon season. It kind of feels a little bit like political crime. In the Ron Contra season, a fiasco, too, it's sort of like a political true crime show. I think if you want to know what happens next, you want to know who did it. I don't think, I kind of think the, the, the gore and although actually I was, so, okay, I should say, I always thought the gore was secondary. I had a thought that like people like weren't in it for the, for the murder. Um, yeah, they were in it for the mystery, but then, but then someone, I was talking to someone recently and they were like, no, no, no. Like the murder and the gore is very much like what correlates to listenership. Like the gore it is, the better. And so I might just be wrong about that. But for me, like the true crime stuff I have liked, uh, It's more just like wanting to know what happened. I prefer crimes of passion as well. I'm a murder head if I had to choose, but that's just me. I've never done a true crime podcast. There was one story I wrote for Slate before I was doing podcasting that I think could be an amazing true crime podcast. It took up a year of my life.

I became totally, totally just like immersed in this small town, you know, small city in Alabama. Uh, and this, this, I can't even start talking about it cause I'm not going to really get out. But, uh, I, Alice is like, Alice just remembers that period as like a time when I just like, wasn't really available. I was just, I was just like thinking about this, this, these people in Alabama, these like these, these people who I, you know, and, and I, You can hear it. I'm getting lost as I talk about it. I brought it up to Alex. Maybe I should go back to that and do a podcast on it. She's like, you can't. You absolutely cannot. I think it's time to call your manager and tell him, let's sell this shit, baby. I'd be in the doghouse, I think. No, you should sell it to somebody else. That's what I'm saying. That's an interesting idea. See, this is what I'm in the business, baby. I don't own it. I don't own it. Slate owns it, just like Slate owns Slowburn. See, this is what I'm saying, Leon. You need a team. That's why we need a lawyer. So, you know, we got to go in there. We got to go in there. We got to get this shit back. This is your intellectual property. Yeah, Chris has what it takes to take down the failing Slate organization. Don't worry. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, me and my goons are going to come through and just bang heads until we get this little idea off the ground. I'm not feeling up to it this moment, but I do go through my moments. I'll call you. I'm available. Do you have a lot of podcast ideas floating around in your head that you're never going to execute? Yeah, I have a couple. I have a couple that I still want to do. I feel like I have to stop starting new ones because I think I have too many. things to keep track of already. I have a couple ideas that I want to do. I hope people keep listening to podcasts long enough that we'll get to all of them. I don't know. What do you guys think? Is this forever? I think it's forever and I think it's going to get much, much more popular as passive listening becomes more widespread.

The more that humans are not really interested in talking to each other without distraction or just doing anything without entertainment, going to the grocery store or walking the dog or whatever it is, I think people are going to need to have something in their ear at all times. AirPods are going to get better and smaller. We're going to be listening to this shit nonstop. yeah all right well i hope you're right you're like hell yeah bro hell yeah let's go baby i mean i agree with you to an extent jason i think that i also i mean i've said this before i think we've talked about it but like this shit hasn't reached like my parents yet you know what i mean like or i mean they listen to this sometimes which is really unfortunate but but In general, there's so many people that it hasn't touched yet in the middle of the country and all over the world that it just hasn't gotten there yet. I think that we have a lot of way to go before that happens. I think we're in the prime time of it before it gets completely fucked up and you can still make some pretty good money doing it without having to answer to the man. I think it's kind of like the record business in the 90s. The last great heyday before it kind of gets taken over by corporate branding and all that shit. I also think the celebrity, like the amount of celebrity podcasts that are going on, I wonder if that will continue to get bigger and take up like, you know. It has to. mind share or if that or if they'll i mean i guess it's easy money for them so they don't care but a lot of them seem to be doing it like kind of out of vanity like somebody just gives them the idea and makes it easy for them um but i wonder if that will continue because if you look at charts sometimes i look at charts and it's like you know all celebrities yeah all celebrities i'm like i don't listen no one i know listens to any of these no one i know even talks about this shit so it's like i i think that is but i do think that genre will be the one that reaches middle America first because that's just how it works here. Yeah, that makes sense. I've been hearing a little bit about how certain buyers are just only interested in celebrity stuff. If there's not a celebrity attached to it, they're not going to hear it. Just like Quibi. Damn, the crooked Quibi strikes again. And just like my failed EDM DJ career taken over by the celebrity DJ pulling...

I'm taking money out of my family's mouth. It's fucking bullshit. Jason can't feed his kids with those CDJs anymore thanks to some fucking actor. Thanks, Paris Hilton. Yeah, exactly, dude. It's bullshit. When you're recording pods, Leona, do you guys, do you have like a personal routine that you get into or a mantra perhaps? You drinking some honey tea, doing push-ups? I've had to drink honey tea on occasion when my voice goes out on me. Uh, and we like have to get something done. Like it would just have to get done that day. And I can't wait till the next day for my voice to get better. I'll, I'll drink some lemon tea for sure with honey. Um, I do have, so I, so, okay. So I, um, I, I had to take vocal coaching lessons, uh, a couple, you know, about a year ago because recording recording was just taking me way too long because I always was a mumbler. Like growing up, I was always a mumbler and I talked, fast generally and and so for whatever reason there's just certain sounds that i really just have trouble with uh and every season we do there's like a different set of words that are like specific to that season that i can't say without like like like um without slurring my words or without like without being like a squelch in my you know my tongue or something uh I don't want to get too many details here. I make a sound, basically. What's an example of a word that's a trigger for you? Season one of Sloburn, about the resignation of Nixon, the impeachment inquiry of the word was House Judiciary Committee. That's a tough one. I cannot say. For Clinton, it was sexual relationship. I can see them pretty well now. I realize I'm not giving you a good example, so I can actually pronounce them now. At the time, sexual relationship was really gnarly for me. It's not great for a lot of us, bro, to be honest. The current season is constitutional. It's really hard for me, unconstitutional. When I say the word black, apparently my tongue clicks a little bit.

I do exercises. I learned exercises from the vocal coach. I have a 20-minute thing of breathing techniques and what they call tongue twisters that I say before I record. This is a glimpse into the elite podcasting world that we did not know about. Jason and I are lucky to get a cold brew to the dome before we start recording. Damn, this guy's doing vocal warm-ups like he's Whitney Houston. Well, I mean, that style of podcasting, I mean, it really is, you know, I guess any type of podcasting where it's just somebody talking, you know, to the layman listener, they're just thinking like, oh, they're just talking, I can talk, that's easy. But the amount of work and thought that has to go into making something that just sounds neutrally normal is really tough. Yeah, exactly. And I think like I have to, you know, I have to slow down and I sound unnatural to myself often when I'm recording. Um, I think because I'm slowing down, my mouth is doing weird things, but, um, I was like amazed. I, I, I, I'm just significantly faster to, to record a, you know, an episode after I've done them compared to when I haven't, um, the mantra, there is one mantra that much. It's just like, I think it's like a theater kid exercise, which is, uh, you go. And then you black out in the booth, nail that shit first take. Damn. This is Jason. This has been a crash course in elite podcasting and we need to fucking, we might need to, we might need to like really transcribe this and like study it a little more. Yeah. This is a Patreon now episode now. Yeah, we just decided to start a Patreon based on this, the elite podcast. Send us your Venmo because we'll give you 33% of how much money we make off of Manscaped. It won't be much. Our CPM is low, but we're willing to share, so that's better than nothing. Damn, that's a really interesting thing. Well, I think that is the approach.

You know, it's pro gear, pro attitude, baby. Like you got to come at this shit seriously if you want to make the big bucks. You know, you want to make the best product. You got to come at it professionally. And if you're bad in it, then you can pay us to do it for you guys. All of our listeners out there who have lots of money and want to become a podcaster. I'm just trying to minimize my time in the closet recording because it's like I hate it. I mean, it's actually nice for what I'm like. Because I usually do it with a producer in my ear. We're connected over Zoom, and one of our producers is recording me and taking note of good takes. It's actually a really good time to spend with someone. You really get to know a person when you're recording for eight hours in a row, but I still hate it. I wish I could just not do it, but I got to do it. As close as you've become with your producer, you would also like to not spend hours in your closet every day. Yeah, exactly. I was thinking earlier today how great it would be to, I mean, would you, if you are a podcaster, would you be able to buy a infrared sauna and then write it off as a vocal recording booth? Do you think that's something that could happen? Interesting idea, Jason. I like where you're going with that. Yeah, I would have to, it's one of those line items you have to sneak in, I think. Look, Liam, talk to your lawyer, let us know. Talk to your accountant, let us know. Yeah, because we're looking to make some investments with our Manscaped money. So Leon, you know, what I've really learned from this conversation is that you, you paid the cost to be the fucking boss, man. And you know, I'm, I'm just impressed with the, the artistry and what all goes. I mean, I know that. I'm aware of some of it, obviously, because I've been doing this long enough to know. But I think it is really interesting for people to understand how these shows that become, you know, a bigger cultural force and part of the zeitgeist are actually made. And it's not just two guys talking via FaceTime with AirPods in. And there's a reason this shit sounds good. There's a reason it's so compelling. It's because a lot of work goes into it. I appreciate that. But I also want to be clear. I think there are different lanes. I think the show can be perfect when it's recorded over FaceTime with two people. Thank you. I think the problem you get is when people who finance the production of podcasts want to produce narrative shows at the cost of a FaceTime show.

that's where, that's where the conflation, but it bothers me. So, um, but as far as a listener, like, I think, you know, there's different, different things. Two different things. Well, you know, left brain, right brain, baby. Um, Leon, tell, uh, tell everybody where they can find you, um, where the show is, et cetera, et cetera. Uh, all right. I'm, uh, I am Leon call on Twitter. Um, remnant of a, of a, of a joke that I don't remember anymore. Uh, wait, that's it. You're, you're, you're absolutely right. It was pub crawl because it was, that was the name of my, uh, I had a, I had a, I had a, I worked at the New York observer out of college and I, and I had a column in the paper about the publishing industry called pub crawl. And, uh, that's where I got Leon crawl. That was, you got it from, from, from half court. Uh, swish baby. Nice work. Yeah. Look, I do my research, bro. Don't worry. I read it. Also, yeah, I was looking at your Twitter. A little side question. What is up with you and smoking? Sigs, Juul, the whole thing. What's your relationship with it? It's active. This is a pro-sig podcast. Non-monogamous, I would say. Yeah, this is a pro-sig podcast. So you're in a safe space, Leon. Yeah, I've been going back and forth. Are you back to analog cigs, or are you juuling? I'm on vacation right now. I'm on vacation at the house, and so I've been smoking since I've been here, but I'm going to go back to not smoking when I get back home. You got the pack of American Spirits in the shed? Nobody has to know? Yeah. I'm just going to go outside for a second, babe, and have a Marlboro Light. I'll be right back. I water the grass a lot, too, Leon. Don't worry. All right, so Leon Crawl on Twitter. Yeah, that's my Twitter. And then the podcast you can find at, I think the easiest way to go is luminary.link slash fiasco. Luminary.link slash fiasco. I think there's probably a free trial on there that you can listen to. Great. Cool, man. Thanks so much. Thanks so much for having me on. I really appreciate it. Oh, hey, man. Our pleasure, guys.

Please, you know, this is eye-opening for us amateurs. So thank you for giving us the college crash course that we don't deserve. Thank you. Enjoy your time out there. Tell everybody you can set what's up. I will. Talk to you soon, man. Thank you.