Nothing’s Carl Pei on Building a $1B Smartphone Company, Why He Left OnePlus After 10 Days of Retirement, and Why He Thinks About Death Every Week

You know, life is finite, so I just had a really tough time grappling with that idea. I still think about it quite a lot, actually. When I think about nothing, and I think when a lot of people think about nothing, they think about the transparent design. You guys have really become synonymous with this beautiful design language of the earbuds, the phones. Tech products are becoming more and more homogenous, less and less dynamic. Every generation is pretty similar to its predecessor. People historically have maybe been keen to categorize you. You know, first you were sort of like, they make earbuds, now it's maybe smartphones. But I sense that you think of... of what you're doing in a more capacious way. If we think about like a more longer term future, say 20 year time horizon, we wanna make tech fun to inspire human creativity. Longer term, I don't know how many years it'll take, or if we're gonna see it in our lifetimes, we should be able to discover other types of intelligent life. And hopefully by then, humans are pretty competitive with whatever, whoever else is out there. And I think that creative muscle is the key to unlocking that. What smartphone do you use? An iPhone, perhaps? Maybe a Samsung or a Google Pixel? For a growing number of consumers, the answer is nothing. That's the name of the London-based startup founded by today's guest, Carl Pei. In our conversation, Carl and I explore what it takes to build an Apple Challenger in 2025. How nothing's transparent designs have helped it to break through in such a hyper-competitive market. and why Nothing's products have found such a strong customer base in India. We also talk about Nothing's multiple near-death moments on its way to a billion-dollar-plus valuation, Genghis Khan's managerial prowess, and why building AI-specific devices is so difficult. I'm Mario, and this is The Generalist. Every revolution in AI creates one question that never changes. Can you trust the output? AI for work is incredible. But without trust, it's just leading to faster mistakes. The challenge isn't building an AI that can answer questions. It's making sure those answers are right. That's where Guru comes in. It's the AI source of truth that connects everything your company knows. So every insight, every answer, every recommendation is grounded in verified knowledge, not outdated information or hallucinations. When your teams and your AIs share one trusted foundation, everything moves faster.

with fewer redos, fewer blind spots, and more confidence in every decision. Because in the age of AI, truth isn't just power, it's protection. See what Guru is doing for thousands of companies like Spotify, DHL, and Stripe at getguru.com. That's getguru.com. Carl, I'm super excited to have you here and to chat about you. It's great to be here. You know, there's so many places that I've thought about starting this conversation, but one thing that... came up for me was when I think about nothing, and I think when a lot of people think about nothing, they think about like the transparent design. You guys have really become sort of synonymous with this really beautiful design language of the earbuds, the phones. And you also talk a lot about technology sort of being fun again. And when I was researching your background, one of the things that I came up, came across was that your first company was like building a website for Pokemon Game Boy walkthroughs. And I imagine at the age you were, when you were writing that, like the Game Boy was the translucent Game Boy. Is that where that like sense of fun comes from in the design language? So first of all, it wasn't a company because I was 12. I didn't really know what a company was. I just learned to build websites about things I was passionate about. And Pokemon was definitely one of those things. And actually all our products today, internal codenames are all Pokemon. Oh, that's awesome. Because of Pokedex. But my first Game Boy was actually the translucent purple one. I didn't make that connection until now. So maybe it impacted me in some subconscious way, but we never thought about it that way. Okay, that's really interesting. Well, maybe a good place to start is what nothing is, because I've heard you say in some other interviews that... You know, people historically have maybe been keen to categorize you. You know, first you were sort of like, hey, they make earbuds. Now it's maybe smartphones. But I sense that you think of what you're doing in a more capacious way. I think it all depends on what time horizon we talk about. Yeah, it's super fine to be misunderstood as long as you keep progressing and evolving. And it's not other people's fault that you're misunderstood.

Therefore, you are this thing. And so it's normal. So we don't have any problems around that. But I think if we think about like a more longer term future, say 20 year time horizon, we want to make tech fun to inspire human creativity. And make tech fun part is kind of clear for people. Like tech products are becoming more and more homogenous. Yeah. Less and less dynamic. Every generation is pretty similar to it. predecessor, the inspired creativity part might still be a little bit confusing or vague to people. The way I see it is that as humans, one of our superpowers is creativity, like both on an individual level, but also on like a species level. And by creativity, I mean the ability to solve problems. And we would love to create products that are not only fun, but help this creative process. But it's not just kind of writing or art or design. It's solving problems on a broader sense. I see our software engineers as creatives as well because they're solving problems in novel ways through code. If we're able to do this, I think that has a net benefit on society because if people can exercise and manifest their ideas in a better way, it should be a net positive. Longer term, I don't know how many years it'll take or if we're going to see it in our lifetimes. we should be able to discover other types of intelligent life. And hopefully by then, humans are pretty competitive with whoever else is out there. And I think that creative muscle is the key to unlocking that. Do you think a lot about the far frontiers of the world, space, intelligent life? Yeah. Both very far, but also very... in the present like minute things that are so minute that it annoys my team i feel like i can zoom in and out quite easily yeah i was talking about these kind of things like very far things even in middle school and i yeah people around me couldn't really have a conversation with me they just kind of wanted to talk about pokemon or naruto or whatever yeah

Where did that come from for you? Was that like, I don't know, science fiction a thing that fed into that? Just something that seemed to come naturally? Don't know. You know, I had a very hard time sleeping as a kid. I was always thinking about what else, like, what's beyond? Like, I'm in this apartment or house in my room, but like, then you have countries, then you have Earth, then you have planets. Is there an end to how much you can zoom out? Like, I kept thinking about that, you know? Mm-hmm. Well. This is great because I actually do want to talk about some of your origins. I always think it's really interesting to hear how really impressive founders and entrepreneurs sort of the things that influence them from early on that are maybe obvious and not obvious. Both of your parents were Alzheimer's researchers, right? In this Twitter sort of you did like one of those things where you're, you know, I'm bored on a flight. Ask me anything question. You talked about, I think, what motivates you and the answer you came up with was death. And something that I've noticed with a lot of entrepreneurs is this like really acute sense of their own mortality. And I sort of wondered if having two parents that are actually like constantly thinking about degeneration of some kind, like created that sensibility in you. Like where does that acute awareness come from? Yeah, I was like six or seven. And I kept thinking about, you know. both from a space perspective like what's beyond but also from a time perspective what's beyond and it was very clear that you know life is finite so I just had a really tough time grappling with that idea and I even one time told my mom hey what like why did you give birth to me like now I have to die like that kind of stuff but and I imagine like you know what if I could be a rock a rock can live for forever Actually, not forever because once the universe explodes, then it's not there anymore. But I think none of that really makes sense as a grown-up. But I guess my mind was very active. Then there was this Steve Jobs speech at Stanford where he talks about death as being the best invention of life and looking himself in the mirror every day to ask himself, you know, if this was the last day I would be alive, would I still do these things that I'm about to do today?

I still think about it quite a lot, actually. Like a couple of times a week, I wake up in the middle of the night and be like, well, life is finite. I'm already, you know, 36. Me too. Oh, nice. Yeah. I'm as, uh, I'm just running and like, oh, I still got to do all these things. And, uh, how much time do I have left? So it keeps coming up. 36. Do you feel like you're at? par of what you expect for yourself uh you know a little behind where you where you want to be given what you expect you know further than you you know have you made better use than you'd hoped or not yet i think i'm pretty at peace with where things are and i think maybe that's a theme for people in their 30s i don't know what your experience is i think that's right um but when i was younger when i was 17 i told myself i need to be able to retire by 25 um so that didn't happen yeah um so maybe i'm a failure compared to my expectations as a 17 year old or you maybe realized like actually retirement would be like totally miserable and you would just do exactly what you're doing yeah i also say that to comfort myself like if i retired i would still do the same thing because now it's i'm having fun and just like traveling going to luxury hotels and resorts and eating you know michelin star restaurant food and drink drinking great wine, that would get boring pretty quickly. Yeah, yeah. I think I remember actually this was from researching you. You did sort of try and do that for like 10 days after leaving the company before nothing, right? Yeah, because I worked there for seven years and I was only 24 when I started. That was like my 20s and just kind of gone in work. We worked like six days a week for most of the time. I felt like I had done a lot career-wise, work-wise, but what if I could take like half a year off, travel the world? And it sounded like a really good idea, but yeah, it just got really, really boring after a while. Like after a week, I was like, wow, this is the same thing over and over again. Like wake up, figure out whether to have dinner, go to the pool.

read a book. And I felt this, I felt super stressed actually. Yeah. Being in that environment. It's like time is ticking and I'm just doing nothing. So for me, it's more relaxing to work than to be on an extended holiday. I didn't know it at the time, but a week later I found out. I understand that. I think I can do, I could probably do it longer than 10 days, I suspect, but. Not that much longer. I think once you do a few days by the pool, you do sort of hit a point where you're like, okay, you know, what's next? You grew up sort of between Sweden, the U.S., and were you born in China? I was born in China, left when I was four, moved to the States for two years, and then to Sweden. And the two years in the States sounded like they were quite formative in a way, and maybe difficult. Maybe, yeah. Maybe in hindsight. So we lived in Staten Island. I didn't know that it was not the best place when I was a kid. But now as I've grown up, people have told me, wow, that's a really rough place. But I don't have a lot of bad memories. I remember the only bad memory is like an American kid, maybe two years older than me. It's like very big. And he was sitting on me. That's kind of the only thing I remember. Oh, gosh. That was bad. Yeah, that doesn't sound great. Yeah. Yeah. And I imagine also probably you're an unusual kid in almost any environment, given the things that you were thinking about. But I imagine if I had to pick a few places on Earth that maybe especially might not be filled with young kids who are thinking about the far future, Staten Island might be a good choice. Yeah, maybe. But actually, my personality was very different. I was very talkative and very extroverted. Oh, really? So my parents had to go to school and, you know. sit with the teacher and hear about how talkative I was, how disruptive I was in class. But then when we moved to Sweden, maybe because I was moving around too much and I didn't know the language back then, I became more quiet. Wow, fascinating. And that sort of stayed with you or now do you find yourself somewhere in between? I'm in between now. I'm like, what is it called? MBTI? Myers-Briggs? Yeah. I'm kind of a...

in between on introverted and extroverted. It changes depending on the day. Oh, really? Okay. I think last time I did it, I was an INTJ. Yeah, I think I'm I or ENTJ as well. Oh, nice. Yeah. I can never tell how much I should put stock in it at all, but it is sort of interesting to push against, right? There was a few articles when I was reading about your background where they talk about how you as a child were like very aware of... the atmosphere you're growing up in sweden but also like the amount of growth and you know the speed of sort of economic growth in china and the way these articles are written it almost presents it as if that's like a totally normal thing for a kid to be aware of i'm curious like how that actually was on your radar that you were sort of like hey something's very different happening in china that is not part of my world here in sweden um i think you would see it in the in the press like I went to school every day. And on my way to school, we have this free newspaper that we can read during the commute. And you would see news about the growth of economies around the world. So back then, China came up pretty often. And then we would speak about it at the dinner table. So it was always kind of a theme. Like, hey, there's a lot of growth happening. And I just got really curious about it. Were you going back to China to see family in the summers or not really? Like maybe once every two, three years. Yeah, but that was in a very kind of controlled environment, going from the airport to whoever relative we were visiting. I didn't really get to explore it on my own. And then it sounded like you probably missed or jumped through a few years of school because you left high school at 15. I left high school at maybe 17. Okay. Yeah. Or 16, something like that. Was that when you went, you sort of then went to go live in China for a period of time to sort of understand what was happening there economically? Yeah, so back then, so after that Pokemon website, when I was 12, I just kept making a lot of websites. That's where I really wanted to learn how to make money online. And was that the first way you made money online? The Pokemon site didn't make any money, but it got some traffic. But I created a bunch of other websites.

as well and the big the first like real money i made looking back it's not a lot but i sold a naruto like another anime website for 4.2 thousand dollars oh wow for like a 15 year old that was a lot of money yeah totally and back then money was worth more than now so i was always really interested in business and you know having heard all the news about the chinese economy growing i just wanted to go and see it for myself like really see it for myself, explore, without my parents being there. They were super worried, like, what's your plan? Like, do you have a 12-month plan? Where are you going to be every month? What are you going to do? But I didn't know how to make a plan. Like, I'm just going to go and explore, you know? I haven't been there, so how can I make a plan? So I didn't make a plan. I just went and met people and started doing stuff. And so you arrive in Guangdong when you were 17 or so with just... hey, I'm going to see what this is like on the ground and what I can do. Yeah. And in the city I was in back then, it's not a big city. There was an electronics mall. So I just kind of went to the mall every day to see what the new gadgets were and started haggling on the price. I bought a few for myself to test them out. Then I started selling them, like exporting them. start a company. I didn't know how to do international bank transfers. I literally went to the ATM with my Swedish bank card and withdrew a bunch of cash. So I was wearing shorts because it's pretty hot there. You'd see me like with a huge bulging pocket full of cash, full of money going to the computer market, haggling and buying stuff, carrying boxes to my apartment. Then I would shoot videos, like unboxing videos. And tutorial videos is how the product works. These are all the features. And those videos were the main sales material when I was selling them on eBay and later on my own websites. Oh, wow. Interesting. So you already sort of had some of that marketing sensibility that I think you see a lot with nothing. You sort of were aware that there's going to be these different sales collateral that I need to include. Yeah. And I guess in hindsight, I really put my money on the line, right? Yeah.

If I bought all this stuff and I couldn't sell it, then I'm pretty screwed. As part of this same Twitter AMA, someone I think asked you your favorite entrepreneur and you said Genghis Khan, which I thought was a really interesting answer and speaks to a sort of level of ambition. Were you a really competitive kid? Maybe even the opposite. Looking back, I was probably quite an annoying kid. I was very... dismissive of uh everything like oh you this this uh this lesson is very boring oh if you want to get good grades all you have to do is raise your hand and ask like two three questions every lesson and then you stand in line after the lesson to pretend to be interested in the class so i kind of saw that you saw through the game yeah and i just didn't didn't choose to do it um that was my like thinking back then it's kind of immature but So not competitive. I didn't really care about my grades. And I think in high school, my grades were not very good. And in Sweden, you have to, there's no test like SAT, right? It's your, every course has a grade and then you average it out over three years. So I was about to graduate. I'm like, wow, I got to shape my grades up. And I only kind of focused in the last two weeks, both by studying hard and trying hard. But then there were also like hacks. We took some teachers out for drinks and that gave us a better relationship with the teacher and kind of helped grease the wheels a little bit. So I don't know how to summarize it. I was more kind of more arrogant kid, I think. And I spent a lot of time, you know, doing my own websites and not going to school and playing games. I would kind of, so I would leave first and then my parents would go to work and then I would... just circle back home and be on the computer the entire day. Then they'd come home after you were supposed to be back from school anyway, so no one's the wiser. Right. That's so funny. What happened while you were in China such that you reached a point where you were like, hey, it's fun to export electronics, but actually this isn't going to be my life's work? My parents didn't like it. They were like, hey, you don't have a degree. You're not going to university.

What you're doing now is just like a small thing. It doesn't really matter. It's not serious. Why don't you go to school? I just kept repeating that and thought, yeah, maybe they're right. And it just happened that the best business school in Sweden, they were opening up a new course and very few people knew about the course. So my grades wouldn't have gotten me into the main course. But it got me into this new course because it was the first year the program ran and there wasn't enough competition. But in the end, it sort of sounded like it was probably not the right way to spend your time anyway because you didn't seem to think too highly of it as a course, right? It didn't prepare you for the future from the sounds of it. But I do think it was good to get some structure. Because if I had continued just selling stuff online... Maybe the ambition level would have kind of plateaued after some time, but getting some structure in like the real world might have been good in hindsight. I was quite disappointed in that school because I was like, hey, this is the best business school. One of the best in Sweden, one of the best in Europe, one of the best in the world. If I study here, I'll be well equipped to face the future. And back then my... The three big trends that I saw in business was the rise of e-commerce. This was 2007, 2008. E-commerce was growing. 2008, I think it was 10% of total retail already. And you could see like a pretty high CAGR, high growth rate. The second thing was the rise of tech companies. Because back then, if you looked at the inner brand, top highest value brands in the world, top 50, top 100. All the new companies on that list were tech companies, like Amazon and Google. So I felt like that was a major trend. And then was the Chinese economy, because I had just spent a year there. I could see it firsthand, things were happening. I expected to learn something about these three topics, but three years later, we didn't touch upon them at all. So I was like, hey, aren't you supposed to set up young people for a good future?

Your business school, we should become business people. These are the main trends. But instead, we learned very old things. I think still good foundations like statistics, macroeconomics, microeconomics. But what about the future? Yeah. It was interesting to me that you spent sort of three years going through that program, and then you seemed to drop out almost at the very last moment before you would get your degree. And it made me wonder, you know are you do you consider yourself a really stubborn person in some way or was there some principle that you sort of felt like you know this wasn't valuable to me so i i almost don't want to get the diploma almost for the sake of it because pragmatically at that point almost you're like well i've i've you know there's almost some amount of sunk cost i should just finish it out but something about that didn't make sense to you i haven't found the right words like is it arrogance is it uh self-belief is it it may be both right maybe people It echoes back to when I was in middle school, not really respecting the system. University was also like, I just always believed that things would work out sooner or later. Why do I need this? And then the arrogance part was like, if I become famous, the school shouldn't get credit because you didn't teach me anything. It shouldn't say that I graduated from this school. And then also laziness. I played a lot of League of Legends during uni, missed a lot of class. And I told myself, you know, if the school didn't teach me anything, they shouldn't get credit, but I was actually just playing computer games. After university, you sort of have this seven-year spell at OnePlus, which we sort of briefly touched on. And, you know, it's such a, I'm sure, formative experience, you know, put you in the world of smartphones and consumer hardware. When you look back on that period, what were sort of the most, I don't know, formative lessons that you then had to bring into nothing? I was a really bad people manager. Really? Why? I mean, I had never done it before. And as the team grew, it just became more and more difficult for me to navigate. And I gave myself a lot of shit for it. Like, why are you so bad at management? Why are you so, why don't you know how to do this? But I think in hindsight, it's fine. Like you're 24, 25.

of course you're going to be a bad manager. You need to pick up. These are like real skills you need to pick up over time and you need training. You need to learn. I think that was like the big thing for me. I always beat myself up for being a bad manager. I think another thing we really cared about was the product because we were also known back then for like being great at marketing and because we had like a system where you had to be invited to buy the phone and that got viral. We generated like a billion dollars in sales just through user-to-user imitations. Wow, crazy. But we always reminded ourselves that it's all about the product. If you create all these high expectations and you hype it up and you don't deliver, then nobody's going to trust you anymore. Where are you going to get the future growth from? I think that's something that's stuck with me since then. On the management piece. Clearly, there is so much that is a skill to be learned from that. What were the parts of it that, I don't know, weren't obvious to you back then, but that have become more so over time? There's so many things, but I think maybe one core concept has been situational management. There's no one size fits all solution. It always depends on the situation. It depends on your situation of where you are in the company lifecycle. Early stage, mid stage, late stage. Very different. It's industry dependent. If we run a software company, maybe we would shape it in a very different way. More flexibility, more freedom, higher talent density. But also, more importantly, every person should be managed differently. One style doesn't really fit all. But when you're a beginner, you just try and take what you learn from the books and just implement. Yeah, interesting. You've said that... You quit on or around your 31st birthday sort of as a gift to yourself. What was the gift? I thought the gift would be like freedom. Freedom. You know, you worked hard in your 20s, 30s. It's a new chapter. And take some time off. Have a think. And time off for you was those 10 days before it got too boring. At that point when you're...

you know i don't know where you went maybe greece sardinia you know italy whatever i imagine a sort of you know white lotus like stint uh and and um did you know hey i'm gonna go back to smartphones consumer electronics or was it just like i can't you know i can't do this i need to be building didn't really know what i wanted to do um thought about a lot of different things and um so after that 10 days i went back to sweden And started talking to entrepreneur friends. And luckily, the community is quite small and also quite friendly. So although I only knew one or two people, but very soon I got to meet almost everybody. I think the only people I didn't meet were the King founders, the new Candy Crush. I think they had moved to London or something. And Klarna. I don't know, just never... I never got around to getting the intro or something, but I met everybody else, basically. And I was just asking people, how do you start a startup? Because OnePlus, we didn't have to raise our own money. And raising money was so strange to me. It seemed so strange. Why would people give you a million bucks or a couple million dollars? What if you lose all their money? Why would anybody take a risk like that? It just seemed very foreign. And this was 2020, five years ago. But after speaking to all the Swedish founders and communities, that's kind of how I started to get a feel of how things work and how we structure, how we face things. And I remember that being a very confusing time as well, because all of a sudden, I worked in a more or less structured environment before. You kind of knew what you had to do, but like raising money, there were so many ways of thinking about it. Everybody had their own strategy, depending on what kind of company. they were building and how they, what kind of values they had. So it's very confusing. A lot of new information, like contradicting information. The first two weeks were like kind of brain fried feeling, you know. But eventually I found a strategy that works in our context and raised the seed round during my time there. I definitely want to hear about that strategy, but there was something when I was reading about this where in a bunch of places you were like,

People told me that my deck was bad and my deck really was bad. What was so bad about it? It looks like a high school student made it. Really? Yeah. I wouldn't show it anymore. Oh, you should. You should release it. I had a friend who said, hey, look, just go and speak. Don't show the deck. You will get a better outcome. I like people who are direct when it comes from a good place. So I really appreciate that feedback. And that's how we kind of went about it. When nothing IPOs or something like that, you should release that deck and see how far you've come. So what was the strategy that made sense for you? Because it is a category that on the one hand is, you know, the biggest or one of the biggest consumer categories in the world. But on the other is all this competition. A lot of people maybe think there's not as much room for an insurgent. So how did you sort of like... put those pieces together. For the fundraising, one thing we did was we only took founder money in the seed stage because my assumption was that this was going to be a very tough journey and I wanted people who had done similar or other things, complementary things before so that when things get hard in the future, I could call them up and get some advice. Another thing we did was uh pretty controversial we did an uncap note wow really because this is hardware hardware is very capital intensive and i didn't want to dilute me and the team to like nothing yeah and like very quickly yeah so that got some pushback um i bet yeah so i guess those were the things but i think now in a you know we're in a more mature stage um or growth stage It's not something we're actually thinking about, but some of my friends are thinking about new structures. What if they have this company, but they want to start another company in parallel? How should you do it? One key decision you make is whether you clone the cap table or not. If you clone the cap table, you lose out a lot of the equity, but it's a very fair thing to do.

You're going to probably leverage some resource in your own time, plus some resource from the previous company. That's what I mean by philosophical or values-driven answers. Yeah, totally. You decided to build nothing in Europe and specifically in London. Why did that feel like the right place for this company when Europe has really not created many great consumer hardware companies? in recent memory so i spent 10 years in china i saw firsthand how strong the supply chain and hardware engineering had gotten and actually a lot of credit should go to apple because i don't know if you read the book apple in china no i haven't because they were manufacturing there and they had to bring up the capabilities of the ecosystem so a lot of that you know what i saw back then was was work that apple had done basically to level everything up. It was tough to get talent when it came to creative fields. So I wanted a change of scenery. Europe seemed to seem like a good place because in hindsight, it's more like comfort because I know Europe a little bit better than the States. So the assumption was, you know, there should be a lot of creative talent in Europe that we couldn't find when I was living in China. find these people and we add the Chinese supply chain efficiency to the equation, it will be a tough company to compete against. It would be hard for a purely Silicon Valley company to get the same efficiency. And we're seeing that, by the way. And it's hard for a Chinese company to create a brand. They're more efficiency focused. So that's how we thought about it in the beginning. And then over time, I think London has also risen up as a good hub for AI. There's some great AI talent. Later on, we saw that London is also a global financial hub, so there's good finance talent. But the core idea is the same. How do we find for the things that we're about to do or are currently doing, where do we find the best talent, irrespective of where they are in the world? And that's a bit like the Genghis Khan example. I think that's what was really special about how he went.

on his entrepreneurship journey. He was a good talent scout? He was very open-minded in terms of culture because back in the day, the Mongolian culture was very tribal. You only trusted your own tribe. You didn't even trust other Mongolians. Yes. But as they were conquering... So first of all, he united Mongolia. The steppes. The steppes. And as they were conquering new lands, they saw that the conquered people were good at different things. So, for instance, back then, I think the Arab countries and Chinese, I don't know if it was different countries or not, but... Empires of that point. Yeah, the different sort of civilizations. They were more like agricultural societies, and they had already developed tax collection systems. So when the Mongolians conquered them, they were super open-minded, even with money, right? You trust outsiders to handle your money, and they reallocated these people to all over the world. help them collect tax. And later on, I think Yangis Khan converted to Buddhism after discovering Buddhism. Super open-minded, daring to work with different cultures, finding things to learn from different cultures. It's funny. I've had this week two conversations about the Mongolian Empire with founders, and both are really around how almost it's an underrated empire, let's say, where It was just this tiny tribe, right? Like in a really inhospitable part of the world that manages to stretch across Eurasia. Have you read the Conqueror series? No. Apparently that's, I haven't read it either. It's now on my list after talking with this other person that it's apparently an amazing historical fiction retelling of like the entire. It's fiction or? It's historical fiction. So it's written like a story, but you know, it's really based on the facts of it. That's apparently. I have a. big book on uh caesar that i haven't started okay so that's sort of next yeah the thing i always think of of of genghis khan and i haven't read these books i'll probably i'll know more things is that apparently he was born uh clutching a blood clot and that was part of his mythology is that like yeah i'm not really powerful i'm not sure how true that is but yeah yeah who knows right but you always i feel like uh

These leaders, there's always this sort of mythology that's created around them. You create stories to help you govern, I think. At least in the past. Yes. No, but totally today too, right? Every founder story gets in each retelling a little bit more mythology, right? Don't you think Elon's stories at this point are maybe half true, half mythology? Don't know. I never met him, but he seems like a very smart guy. Not even his retelling. I mean, like even the reporting on these things, like everything. I think that's just human nature that we always amplify. Maybe, yeah. But I think sometimes it's by design, right? Yes. But in Elon's case, I'm not sure it's by design. I see what you're saying. Yes, I think that's fair. I think sometimes people are more overtly mythologizing themselves in those ways, right? Coming back to nothing, one of the things that I've come to really strongly believe is that every legendary company has at least one near-death moment. And you had one really early, right? A lot. Yeah, a lot of near-death moments, especially in the beginning. The one that comes to mind now is our first product, the Ear One earbuds. So first of all, everybody rejected us in the supply chain for making phones. They were like, hey, there's been a bunch of these, you guys, like startups, in the last 10 years. We've worked with a few. They all failed. We all lost money. We're not going to work with startups anymore. We're going to work with big customers like Apple. So go away. Not worth it for us. Not worth it. And then we're like, okay, let's make earbuds. Then it should be more possible. It's cheaper to make. And then we got rejected by every earbuds factory as well. And they were like, hey, there's 3,000 no-name earbud brands on Amazon. What's the difference here? And so we ended up working with, there was only one factory that was willing to work with us. And that factory was... They didn't have any other customer. That's why they wanted to work with us. Because they were on the blacklist of the major customers for having had product failures in the past. So we worked with them out of necessity to create this very strong launch momentum. And as we were shipping out the products, there was like an 80% defect rate. That felt like a near-death moment, right? We raised money really up the...

the expectations on us, and then just couldn't deliver on the product. We quickly rented apartments next to the factory, put our own engineers, like we only had, I don't know, five or ten people, and they became factory managers. We managed each step of the production line, and that got the quality up. We replaced all the defect units, and we were shipping a lot of free replacements back then to... Because these early consumers took a big chance on us. We just like sopped them out and recovered from that moment. But the profit and loss statement didn't look as good as we had planned. Yes. What was the, maybe the most recent moment or, you know, one in your later history where you still felt like, hey, this could all go away. Like, you know, these are still... the stakes here every day is like a roller coaster ride or maybe every week every week it's like a roller coaster ride but i think the big one was uh probably series uh b in 2022 maybe 2022 or 23 i forget something somewhere in that yeah it was when the market was beginning to cool down a little bit yeah couldn't raise um had my calendar filled with investor meetings every day and that was my only job and uh every meeting was very challenging like i would get challenged on the strategy like what if what about this what about that what about this i try my best to answer all the questions but after two months of like constant questioning i also lose confidence yes no term sheets constant questions and it just felt like it just got worse and worse because i lost confidence the meetings got worse and that felt like a near death moment because I started having nightmares like waking up at 4am and not being able to fall asleep again and the nightmares would be about shutting down the company like all hands sorry guys it's over like that kind of dream then I called up a few friends and we went to we went partying for a weekend and I guess then I got to step out from the day-to-day negativity and I just got really tired like too tired to be depressed

and kind of snapped out of it and the the round actually quickly came together after that wow what was the domino like did you just find someone finally who just got the pitch or got you in some way and yeah we had uh then like a few months a few weeks later we had two term sheets uh maybe because i was in a better mood and not no longer in this like negative spiral anymore yeah ah so interesting how those things can can happen uh it seems from the outside like the sort of first maybe real breakout hit was the 2a phone is that sort of how you think about it or like what were the big inflection points in nothing's journey i think our first earbud despite the early quality issues that we fixed um we sold almost 600 000 of those units yeah so and this was also in the middle of covid where the supply chain was uh uncertain and component costs increased mid-life cycle of the product and we increased the price from 99 to 149 dollars but it still kept its momentum so that was like a good proof point i think the phone one like brand new design that nobody had seen before got a lot of attention uh from a revenue perspective 2a was a great product okay um it's a good product but it wasn't as like fresh as the phone one that was the first time the world had seen anything like that. Yes, that makes sense. A big part of the differentiation comes from the design. And you've talked about how design is sort of like, you know, maybe the easiest or the best first form of differentiation. When did you sort of like realize that? Because it's maybe obvious when you look at nothing today that that maybe is the philosophy, but I don't think that's a conclusion that a lot of other people would make when they think of consumer hardware automatically, right? It was very clear. for us in the beginning. This is how we should do it. I think the context is like, are you in a mature category or a nascent category? When you're in a nascent category, your main goal is PMF, like find product market fit, build something that people actually want. But in a mature category, in our context, there was already a billion smartphones sold every year. So we knew that there was PMF for this form factor. Then the question becomes, how do you differentiate and carve out?

and wedge yourselves in, carve out a piece of the market for yourself. And then for us, design was the fastest way to do it. And other people are sometimes looking at us and maybe also copying the transparent design language, but they're in a nascent product category. They should just think about whether they're copying the right move or not. Yeah, so if you're coming up with, I don't know, some special AI device that no one knows if anyone's ever actually going to use that, deciding to make it look like nothing you're sort of missing the point yeah just make it useful a big part of the way that nothing seems to approach design also comes from this sort of relationship and partnership you have with teenage engineering which uh independently of always being interested in what nothing was doing i always thought wow whatever teenage engineering is doing is so interesting it's this you know for folks that listeners that haven't heard of it it's this swedish company that makes like really beautiful audio products and other things, but there's a really distinctive sort of playful design in everything they do. How did that connection come together and how did it become, I guess, such a deep relationship? Earlier on in 2018 or 19, a Swedish friend wanted to introduce us. And I kind of brushed it off. I'm like, what's that? Like, we are still a growing brand? We need to work with more established, more credible brands. Like, why don't you introduce us to Dior or Gucci? Like, why this kind of super niche thing? It's not going to help. But I got convinced to still take the meeting, and it was just a different vibe. Like, they were so creative, and the designs were so cool. And that's when the relationship started. And when I had the idea to start nothing, I met Jesper, the CEO of Teenage Engineering. And it was just like a really chill conversation. 40 minutes shook hands. We figured out the deal a bit later. But 40 minutes shook hands on like we should do something together? We just shook hands and then we figured out the commercial structure. But it wasn't that hard to get to common ground because we had already aligned. We just wanted to do something at scale. And I didn't know it at the time. But in hindsight, Jesper has been a...

has been quite influential on my life because he used to be an advertising director, like a commercial director. So some of the best advertising that I grew up with that was constantly on TV that I still remember to today were envisioned by him. What were the ads? So this will only make sense to people who grew up in Sweden, but there's like a painkiller ad with a little guy who sings about the properties of the painkiller. Super like, you just remember it because it's so catchy. There's a Swedish beer brand that's all about the feeling of Swedish summer. Because Sweden has a big archipelago. Very beautiful during the summer. Like sailing and drinking beer with friends, barbecue. That kind of feeling to sell a beer. Not selling the product, but selling the feeling. Those were two really iconic ads that he did. How do you work with teenage engineering today? And yeah, what are the... the feelings that maybe they've brought into the way that you think of nothing? When we started, we built the brand universe together. Like our first product was not a hardware product. It was a book, like a brand book. And we had this kind of thought exercise of, you know, imagine if Apple didn't exist, what would the leading tech company, consumer tech company look like? Because it's too easy to be sucked into their vortex because they're the biggest. whenever they do something all the other brands kind of just follow in a way i think you know here we have a dyson store opposite of selfridges it's kind of like an apple store but in all black we just wanted to get away from that type of thinking like yes be influenced so stepping out taking a building a mood board from different creative fields outside of electronics like movies, architecture, art, and finding our universe through that. So the first part of the book is like a mood board, and the second part of the book are design explorations for future nothing products. So that's kind of what we built together in the beginning. That set the tone for the product design and the brand design. And we're also like, let's make a product company that people will be proud of. So one of the graphics that really resonated was...

There used to be a Sony museum in Tokyo where they showcased all the products on the wall and on the tables. And they would take guests there when they were visiting the Sony HQ to proudly showcase everything they built. So we were like, hey, hopefully in 10 years from now, we'll also have like a big wall with products that we're proud of having made. And let's make them all look like they came from the same company. It sounds simple, but a lot of... companies operate in big silos like each product might look beautiful but there wasn't a consistency across the the brand and that's what we really wanted to create for for nothing so now i think we've kind of done that you know if you look at our products and you don't see the logo and you put a couple of nothing products together yeah kind of you can tell immediately that it's the same yeah there's a signature a dna somehow and today the you know we set the brand today we work on more like we review designs together every now and then And we have some special projects on the side. When you were doing that exercise, and maybe still today, where are the places that you took inspiration? You say films. Were there particular films or particular objects? I think the movie scene I remember is a scene from Space Odyssey. Furniture, there's so much inspiration. Furniture from the 60s, 70s, 80s. We wanted to create something fresh that always felt fresh. And to create something fresh, you can't follow the current thing because the current thing has a stamp in time. So if we were to copy like a 2025 Apple product, in 2027 it will feel old because you remember this came from 25. So by detaching ourselves from current things, finding inspiration from past things, that's how we believed we could build a design language that always felt fresh. What was the Space Odyssey scene? Do you remember? Okay, there's two, I think. One with the astronauts in the corridor. Uh-huh, yeah. And one with Hell. Yeah. Hell 9000. Yeah, Hell 9000, right? Yeah, I just watched that movie. There was an interesting hire that Nothing made recently, which is I think you just got a chief branding officer from Lowe, which is, you know, a luxury brand sort of, I think, probably best known for its leather goods and things like that. It was an interesting hire and sort of maybe hints at like the way that you're positioning yourself.

What are the lessons from maybe luxury or apparel that you're sort of trying to bring into the way that you think about marketing and branding? Well, we always wanted to get away from traditional consumer electronics marketing because that felt kind of stale and uncool, training somebody at Best Buy to sell your product. And it felt like we could create something better than that. I think, so this guy, Charlie, that we recently recruited. He's done a lot of the things we're about to do or have plans to do in the next couple of years. I think what he did also really fits our DNA. We're very design-first as a company, and so is the luxury fashion industry. Culturally, we are quite intense because we're ambitious. And in Europe, the luxury fashion industry is also a very competitive space, even the internal culture, because it's a very competitive industry, and Europe is world-leading in that industry. We care a lot about recruiting Gen Z customers into our brand, and Loewe is the de facto choice for Gen Z. When you get your first big bonus or paycheck, you go buy their bag. So that requires us to understand the market very well, understand the consumer very well, and also speak to them on channels where they are. They're very much on TikTok these days. Loewe was really good at TikTok. We care a lot about TikTok. So there was just so many synergies. And so I'm very much looking forward to see what we do together. You can tell how ignorant I am of luxury brands that I thought it was low rather than Loewe. Who knows what it is? It's a hard to pronounce name. Yeah. You've said that marketing is about pure efficiency and finding these ways to sort of fight unfair. And especially when you're going up against Apple and Samsung and whoever else, that feels especially important to find those ways. What have been the sort of strategies or the channels or heuristics that have been useful for you in fighting that way? Yeah, I think, you know, at its core, business is about arbitrage.

So marketing is a part of business. Marketing should therefore also be about arbitrage or efficiency. You get arbitrage from innovation, I think, right? Because if you know something that nobody else knows, then there's less competition here and therefore you get lower cost for whatever you're trying to do. I remember when I was building websites as a kid, all of a sudden there was this new product called Facebook Ads. And the first companies that learned to use Facebook Ads all made a lot of money because there wasn't a lot of competition. bidding for the inventory. But now it's really hard to make money because it's a very well-known tactic to everybody from small companies to big companies. So I think that's what marketers should be looking for. What is the next opportunity? Because if I can spend the same amount of money and get a 2x higher output, I think that just compounds really aggressively over time and it becomes a strong competitive advantage. A lot of people say they like the old Apple ads. I think those strategies were very good in that time context. People talk about the 1984 Super Bowl ad. If you were to release the same thing or a similar thing now, it wouldn't get the breakthrough because Super Bowl has also become the place where all the companies showcase their best creatives, right? So the competition is very different from before. So it's no longer an arbitrage opportunity. Written media, digital media. Digital media was pretty big 15 years ago. Not as big today, but we knew how to work with digital media through PR pretty well. So whenever we had a product, there was a lot of coverage about the product. Over time, we've gotten better at social because that's where people are moving. I think there's still a lot to do in social. We talked a little bit about content before we started recording, but I think there's still a lot more value to find in social. And then... I think you just got to keep doing more and more difficult things. So yeah, our marketing has to evolve. We have to, I think creative will be key in the next stage. Because if you only think about it from a pure ROI perspective, the brand will look kind of cheap over time. But we're trying to also build the image and the perception of the brand. So creative plays a big role. And the 1984 thing is also about the creative, right? Because the ad spot.

The media spot was, a lot of companies had it, but only one company had the breakthrough creative to really make an impact. So hopefully in the next couple of years, creative is where we really break through on marketing. India is such an interesting part of your story, I think. Nothing is obviously an underdog relative to Apple, but I think I read that you're sort of on track to do a billion in sales this year. You've sold many millions of products. It's really made a real dent already in many respects. Maybe you're only less than a percent of where you want to be, but 70% of the sales are coming from India. I think it's maybe 55. Okay, so that's changed, or maybe the reporting was off. I think we tried to correct the reporting, but not sure what happened there. Okay, so... It's still a significant part of the business. And so how did that... Was that like something that you... foresaw in some way when you were starting the brand? Or was it like purely emergent that you were noticing, hey, for some reason, this is really taking off in this geography? So India is doing really well for our smartphone portfolio. And the US is doing really well for our audio portfolio. It's not 100% overlapping. But for smartphones, India is a great opportunity. We saw that from day one, because you look at the Android market share, it's like 90%. Whereas in the US, it's like 40%. Everybody's already on Android. It's way easier to convert an Android user than an iPhone user. And what changed in the last couple of years is that the economy has grown to a stage where the middle class is really becoming important. And I think as a country's economy grows, you kind of move up the Maslow's hierarchy of needs. In the past, it might have been about functional benefits. Hey, my flat is really hot. I have AC. You don't have AC. Therefore, I have a more comfortable life. I think it has to do a lot with status. Also, people really care about status. So, you know, in the past, an air condition will give you status in society. And then over time, as the economy develops, it kind of shifts to emotional benefits. Like, hey, I have a big logo on my chest. You don't have it. Therefore, I have higher status. And then over time, it shifts to like more kind of self-actualization. Hey, I care about these social issues.

that are quite avant-garde you don't know about them therefore i'm superior like i'm better so yeah that's the underlying logic even if people don't want to admit to it i think that's the underlying logic driving it i think india is in a very interesting space it's going from functional to emotional and if we started with this strategy of being design-led earlier it wouldn't have worked but it just happens to be that the capabilities that we have in hardware industrial design and also software design and brand is becoming really important in this market. That's why we're able to do what we've done. You've created sort of a, I don't know if you'd call it a sub-brand or a separate brand that sort of leverages some of the same DMA called CMF. Why did it make sense to sort of create a quasi-subsidiary rather than just remaining, you know, just having everything flow through nothing? There's a business reason and also of the opportunity. The business reason is because in the smartphone industry, you need scale. Bigger companies ship 100 to 200 million units a year. We ship a couple million. There's no way we can be price competitive on the cost side because they just procure more, they have more bargaining power. So if we want our products to get better, to have more money to invest in the technology, we need to increase our... bargaining power with suppliers and therefore we have this other brand but it's also quite common like in the automobile industry having a house of brands for different types of consumers where you all share the same platform and the same economies of scale I think it's very common also in like CPG right like yeah totally so in consumer categories we see this a lot but the opportunity that we saw was in our industry when it came to smartphones companies don't really care about their mid or lower tier phones. So they put their best team on the so-called flagship, the premium tier, and they kind of just outsource the work on the low tier. The products were not great, but we thought if we put the same amount of energy into all our tiers and work a little bit harder, we can provide a much better product to consumers even when the price is not that high. So CMF effectively allows you to sort of...

be really competitive at that part of the market but retains nothing's feel of like being a more flagship premium brand but then also grows the volume such that you have more of that bargaining power across the entire portfolio yeah it's um it's comp it's more complicated to have two brands but yeah i think if you want to have a smartphone business this is probably the only way Would you ever do a version of, say, another brand that's even more and more high-end, for example? Not in the next couple of years. We have a lot of other things to do. But in a steady state, if there was no new technology, yeah, I think we would kind of trend towards like a CPG house or a hotel conglomerate. Yeah, that actually, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. What has it been like working in India? And I know there's this sort of Made in India initiative that you guys have. really leaned into, I imagine that's brought some really amazing opportunities, but also complexities and challenges that maybe weren't foreseeable when you sort of first thought about it. The energy is very good. I moved to China in 2011. I think the energy in India right now feels very similar. I think we're going to see the same movie play again. So I'm very bullish on India. And I think if there's any kind of young person out there who's willing to move there for 10 years now, it will be hard to fail. Because the entire momentum, it's hard to not be impacted by the momentum that's happening there. But it is developing, right? So things are far from perfect. When it comes to manufacturing, for instance, we have these transparent designs. In our early manufacturing, we really struggled with dust. If you have dust on your... Inside of your iPhone, it doesn't really matter because the consumer wouldn't care. They wouldn't see it. They wouldn't know. But for us, you know, that was hard to control. Yes. We built some very advanced manufacturing techniques now in India. So the products are dust free. Another sort of development, it feels like over the past year, maybe even six months, has been the way that you have leaned into AI and the way that should interface with sort of...

people's personal computing environment. How did you sort of like think about the right way to start playing with this new set of like technological primitives? We're still struggling on a topic, which is whether we should mention AI at all. There's pros and cons to both, but fundamentally I believe technology doesn't matter as much as the user experience. And if we're not user experience led, our technology also wouldn't be successful in the market. So I see it more as an ingredient. to help us create better products that ultimately help people in some way that's beneficial to them. So we try to kind of tone down the hype talk and focus more on user scenarios where we could be helpful. So we've only taken kind of some baby steps. We added this key on the side of our phones. You can use it for recording any idea you have. Just tap to record, release to save. It can be... a voice, it could be a screenshot of what you're looking at, it could be a web link from your browser into this space, and then it helps you summarize and organize. It helps set up to-do lists, Google Calendar syncing, meeting note recordings. It's just very utility-first, and we have a high percentage of creative professionals using our products, so making it a tool to organize their thoughts and hopefully in the future also help. with their creative workflows. So that's one product. Another product is something we call essential search. Basically, on phones, you can search for contacts, for files, for apps. We just added answers as well. Me and my fiance, we always kind of try and prove that we are right. But then now I just kind of use this and just show the answer to her immediately without having to go and Google it. Because going to Google is like browser, search box. search and then try and decipher all the information. This just gives you the answer. And I think OS native integration is always more convenient for the end user. Yes. And then on Playground or the essential apps, it's more like envisioning a different future where software is truly personal. Because today, if you think about the operating systems, like there's a billion users for iOS and three billion for Android.

It's basically kind of one product for a lot of people. Surely then you have to kind of just generalize the product requirements. So it fits everybody. But with where software is going, I think it's going to be in a few years, it will be one for one. Every software will be one for one, even the operating system. So if that's the future, then what is the first step we can take? And that was the thinking behind Essential Apps. Yeah, and for folks that haven't seen it, it's almost like a mini lovable that just fits exactly already into your device and sort of seems to draw on nothing's existing design language and stuff like that, such that it, I don't know, it looks really beautiful, the version. Yeah, so the common, everybody with an idea can create a mini app, basically, just using natural language. And have it sit on your home screen in the way that you want it. That's kind of magical for me as a non-coder. write something, you click deploy and it shows up on your phone. One of the other things that seems to have come up recently is that you've been experimenting with doing like small ads on the home screen and some pre-installed apps. And it seems like, you know, some folks don't love that. How do you think about like making these trade-offs in different moments and when it's the right time to experiment with something like that, given that You know, I think especially for a company like yours, it can be difficult because it's in such direct contact with consumers and is so community driven that like anytime you do anything, I imagine you hear a lot, which is a strength and can also be hard, I imagine. It's a constant balancing act. On one hand, this is common practice in the industry. So if we already have to pay a lot more for the hardware and we cannot make the margin that they make on the software, that just puts us in even. tougher, competitive position. Yeah, your cost structure is just worse, essentially. Yeah, even worse. Yeah, even worse. Right. Before it was just hardware, but now the software is also worse. But on the other hand, we have a very passionate community, and I think even when they're complaining about us, it comes from a place where they want to see us be successful. That's why they want to give us these suggestions. In this recent case, I think we went, it's a balancing act, but I think we went a little bit overboard.

on the pre-installed software. So we're going to be turning it back a little bit. It's just always finding the balance. Yeah. And you have to sort of, you know, you can totally understand why on the one hand, people react to these things and, you know, have their opinions about it. And the other hand, you know, from the business's perspective, you need to sort of also be able to run these experiments, right? And see. Yeah. And we can just be honest about it. Hey, we, we made a bad call. We're reverting some of that. And I think that could also help us earn some goodwill back from the people that are upset right now. Yeah, totally. You guys have been an uncommonly, in a way, community-driven company. You've invited the community to invest at various points at the same valuations as professional investors, as the folks that have led your different rounds. You've had a sort of rotating community board member. Why has that been something that has been... important to you? And how have you sort of managed to make it work? Because there's a version, especially of the community board member, that I could imagine being a total nightmare. And there's a version that I could imagine being really productive. I think it's about believing in the long term. I think things get clear when you think about the long term, about something, then the short term becomes clear on what to do. And even if you're making mistakes, short term, you kind of like, you know where the North Star is. and you can correct your course. But I do think the biggest change that we've seen in our lives has been the rise of the consumer internet. Like now, you don't have to be in Silicon Valley to be an expert about a field in technology anymore. You could live on a remote island, even if you're young, and, you know, take these open courses and connect to people on communities and write code and contribute to GitHub, make friends. Like you could become a near expert at anything. from anywhere so if this is true then in the future companies will probably be organized differently you will find talent from everywhere and also the boundaries of what a internal team member is and what a community member is will also blur so that's the long term and we want to keep experimenting and getting closer to that so not only the board board stuff but also recently we also today we started selling the

Bone3A community edition that the community co-created with it. Yeah, I'm sure there are plenty of community members that would also be better to have on a board than your average venture capitalist. It's very helpful, actually, because I think also it's easy to become, to think too highly of yourself, especially when things are going well. But always having the voice of the consumer in the room, checking us, hey, you promised this thing, but you actually didn't deliver. This is what the community thinks about it. Keeps you humble and keeps you more true to your mission. What are some other devices beyond, you know, those that nothing makes that you sort of deeply admire or think there's something really interesting or creative about? I like Porsches. Yeah? Yeah. It's just beautiful, iconic. Even though the design language evolves over time, it's still very distinctively them. I feel like in consumer electronics, we're kind of in a bad era. there's not much that I like right now. There's been such a struggle, I think, with so many of the, let's say, AI hardware companies that have come and already passed in many cases, Humane, Limitless, Rabbit and Friend are still out there and maybe a few others and stuff like that. Why do you think that has been a category that is having such a hard time? Because in theory, It feels like there should have been really new life breathed into this possibility, but we haven't really seen it shake out that way yet. I think these companies are all very courageous. And if I were in their shoes and had to invent something different that the world had never seen before, I think there's also a high chance of failure. So it's great that people are out there trying things. And I think a lot more companies are going to try in the next couple of years with AI being so hot right now. future of these categories could be. But I think most products will fail because we're all like this part of the industry is all about discovering PMF. And when you're in the discovery stage, it's like when you're in a lab doing research, a lot of your experiments will fail. But let's see them as experiments. So we're also going to be on this journey. But when you do an experiment, how can you control the cost?

of each experiment and also control the time to market for each experiment. So you can do a couple of them quickly and quickly learn. I think that's maybe where I think a little bit differently versus having one idea and just like believing this will definitely always work and then putting all the chips on that. And if it doesn't work, it becomes quite hard to turn things around. Do you see the smartphone as still likely to be our dominant? piece of consumer electronics in 10 years from now? Or does that feel like roughly the time where we start switching to glasses or to something else? I think the kind of the big steps along the way. So I think ultimately it'll be a brain-computer interface. That will be the replacement of the smartphone. And then along the way, I don't know how long the BCI will take. 20, 30, 40 years? Along the way, there will be two other... big categories one is the ev and one is humanoid robotics but i think my personal timeline is also less uh optimistic especially on humanoids than some of the startups out there in between humanoid and smartphone there will be a few larger new form factors as well and that's you know i'm excited to explore some of that i don't really know what yeah it will be we'll take like a research approach You said humanoids and EVs? Yeah. Do you feel like there's still a lot more to be done in that category that we haven't seen yet? I think EV is more mature than humanoids. The thing that remains to be done is around autonomous driving, kind of robotaxis, and also the integration of the operating system between all the devices, including the phone and the car. Right now, they're all different ecosystems, apart from CarPlay and Android Auto, but kind of a... It's not a seamless experience yet. Yes. And so if you sort of graduate through the steps like Genghis Khan, you'll go through maybe some glasses, an EV, a robot, and a BCI. Maybe. Based on what I know today. But as I learn, maybe the idea changes. Roadmap changes. One of your investors said that you are really influenced by Eastern philosophy and Zen.

And I wondered, yeah, where that came from for you and how maybe that influences how you think about what you're building. In periods of my life when I was down, I took to philosophy quite a lot. Both, I think Stoicism had a big impact on me. And then I also, I think there was a book that Steve Jobs read on Zen Buddhism. I read that book. It was pretty interesting. I guess the common thread is more just to be more relaxed about things and see the bright side in things and don't try and control what you can't control and control what you can't control. So if there's something that doesn't work and you have no ability to influence, just let it go. Well, let's wrap up with maybe two sort of philosophical or thought experiment-y questions. Oh, by the way, in middle school, philosophy was the class where I paid the most attention. Ah, interesting. That's great that your middle school had philosophy. I think that's a great idea. If you had unlimited resources and no operational constraints, what's an experiment you would really like to run? If that was the case, we would just do all the products we talked about just now and then have the operating system integrate all of them. spend a lot of resource on building a great brand that people love and increasing our retail distribution. If you could assign a book to everyone on earth to read and understand, what would you want to assign? Philosophically, I don't really like to force people to learn because I think it's okay to not learn. You're not a better person just because you learn stuff, but it's also your own responsibility to learn. Even if somebody really pushes you hard. and you kind of don't want to do it. It's up to you. You think learning is totally morally neutral? It's a morally positive thing, but forcing people to do it is not a good thing. Everybody has their own responsibility to learn and get better. For instance, when it comes to talent, I believe that talent is selected and not taught. You know what I mean? The people who learn, they're always going to learn irrespective of where they are, and we just select them, promote them. If you don't want to learn, even if I...

you know, buy a very expensive course for you, you're still not going to learn. Yes. So I don't know what book should people read. Whatever makes you happy. I read a book on Provence, like living the good life in Provence. That was pretty relaxing. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Well, that feels like a great place to end. I'm really glad we had this chance to chat. And I think what you're building is extremely cool. And I can't wait to watch what happens next. Awesome. Thank you for the opportunity. That's it. Thank you for listening to this episode of The Generalist Podcast. Please subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your preferred podcast app. Ratings and reviews help others discover these discussions, so if you enjoyed the conversation, I'd be grateful if you could take a moment to leave one. For all past episodes and more, visit us at thegeneralist.substack.com. See you next time as we continue to explore the future.