035. - Elise Loehnen

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Hello. What up, TJ? What is up? You know, just we took a few days off the pod. I mean, I felt like, you know, it was probably the right thing to do. People had more important things to pay attention to and still do. Don't get me wrong. I still do, definitely. Yeah, I mean, I was thinking about it. Today is Tuesday. There is a kind of a blackout for posting on social media for anything that isn't helpful to the cause and the movement. But I think that it's important for leaders of all sizes to still go out there and share our thoughts because we don't really have... a way to do that and to connect with people. We don't have a leader. We have a terrible president. That's not helping anything at all. We're, we're not getting any, you know, people just need to be around other people who have a, you know, like-minded thoughts. No, I agree. And I also don't think that, that social media is even the best place for talking to people that you agree with. So that is, that is, yeah, that's a whole other thing. You know what I mean? So, but I am, I am back in New York. which is a very different environment than the one that I was in. America and Canada going through two different waves right now. Yes, similar yet different. The protest in Montreal was obviously like... Very measured, no violence, no looting. Just a very different experience. Not that they lack passion. It's a different approach. Canadian, that's all you have to say. Yeah, it's Canadian, honestly. But being back here, even for less than 24 hours, it feels pretty diabolical. Just the overall atmosphere is bad. And, you know, I don't know. It's like overcast, too. The whole thing is just sirens and helicopters and, you know, everything's boarded up. I've definitely, I've lived here, I guess, 11 years now. I've never seen anything like this before. But, you know, desperate times call for desperate measures. And, you know, a Chanel store is not that big of a deal in the scheme of things.

Hey, I agree. I've been trying to tell that to my girlfriend all week. But I don't know. You know, I guess something that's confusing me just a little bit is that, you know, I just talked about this with some other people. But, you know, obviously we know what the goals are to some extent. You know what I mean? But I'm at least personally confused on who the leader is of this. Like, where do we look? for this stuff, this information. Because, you know, and I don't have an answer, but it just seems like that is something that it's running pretty wild and there's so many sources. Of course, a lot of those are on social media, which you, you know, take with a grain of salt, depending on what it is. Or at least you hopefully take it with a grain of salt. Yeah, exactly, exactly. But yeah, I don't know. Well, I think that's also something that I was thinking about recently. My girlfriend and I were talking yesterday and I was saying this is the time where an Obama speech would really help everybody right now. I don't think, yeah. And we don't have any leader. you know, who's, who's able to speak to us with that, you know, with that much power to, you know, it's not going to fix everything, but it will at least just sort of, you know, to put everyone's mind at ease so they can sleep one night. I just think people need, I mean, I think it's nice to hear from something bigger than you that agrees with you. You know what I mean? Something or someone that feels. You know, obviously this movement, this protest is a lot about authority, but I think police authority and leadership are two different things. Yes. So it's like, I think that hearing from someone, I mean, the New York Times came and read a fucking headline, right? You know what I'm saying? It's like, it just seems like there's some things that, at least to me as a relatively informed person, there's some things that could be said and could be done that could,

At least, like you said, ease people's minds or even bring people together. Because I think right now, people agree in some regard, but I don't know if they fully understand what they're agreeing with. Or not even that, maybe what the eventual outcome should be, maybe is the right phrasing. I think a little bit of that is, I mean, a large reason for that is this thing. It was a long time coming, but the switch flipped very quickly, and everyone is sort of organizing and scrambling and figuring out what to do, and there is not really a leader, and everyone is sort of organizing and taking the voice into their own hands for everything, the way everyone has sort of... you know, abolished television and news, you know, people, I guess, of our younger generation and, you know, are using their own platforms to become, you know, their own forms of leaders, you know, and just like our podcast, just like many other podcasts or, you know, everyone else's media outlet, no matter what you do, a zine or an Instagram page or a podcast or a YouTube series, whatever it is, I think that, you know, we are going to have to be our own leaders to guide our own types of people. The people that listen to this show, we don't have a massive following, but we have thousands and thousands of people who listen to the show, thankfully. And a lot of those people don't need our help or our voice, but some of them might. And they can use us as an example of how to hopefully be a better person and change the world into a better place. I mean, no, of course I agree with you a hundred percent. And I think that that's the, that I think is something I've learned this week is that, you know, social media for me is something that I don't take that seriously. Although I recognize now that it's, it's, you know, there are people listening and it, when it benefits me.

You know, I'm not directly making money off it, but I'm definitely making money off of what it means in some regard. And it would be irresponsible of me, you know, not to say something in a situation like this. The same way it would be irresponsible of us not to use this podcast to at least spread some sort of, you know, conversation about what's going on. And I think that the fear of... saying the wrong thing or like, I'm white, who cares? I think that stuff is obviously real feelings for you and I. But the greater good should shadow that. The fear of posting something online that is insensitive or taken the wrong way or if you meant no harm by it but you have hurt people by posting that, that really does you know, steer people away from, you know, taking the risk of, of sharing their thoughts online because, you know, it could really affect their life. They could, it could affect their money. It could affect their, their social media following their, you know, they could become canceled. I mean, and that's the thing is like saying dumb shit that could affect me doesn't scare me. So what is saying important shit? Scare me. You know what I mean? That doesn't equate in the way that it should for me. And that's kind of the thing that I recognized when I was thinking about this more. Well, you know, we're all adjusting our lives in our own ways. And they're all different. And some of them are harder than others. Some of them are easier than others. But, you know, it really does boil down to having, you know, empathy for people who really do have those fears. For some people. That's a very hard fear to overcome because they could have worked so hard to build up whatever it is they've done and they could ruin it all by posting the wrong thing or saying the wrong message or whatever it is, even if they mean well. And as long as we just create an environment where people are educated and corrected in a healthy way versus shunned and canceled and screenshotted and ridiculed online because they...

didn't share enough money on a donation post or whatever it is, you know, it's a good way to get out your aggression for the day to talk shit on Virgil for not posting enough money. But in the grand scheme of things, we obviously know that Virgil has a lot of money and he will probably donate more money than all of us and he cares. And it's, you know, it's dumb to just focus on that for 24 hours when you could have used that 24 hours to change the minds of a bunch of your racist friends and family that you have yeah yeah exactly no it's very true it's very true um we do have a guest today um uh who you you actually know a little bit i believe but elise lonen is her name um she's the chief content officer at goop um she co-hosts the podcast and she was also on goop lab the netflix show um She put up an episode of her podcast yesterday that has been getting some attention. I think she tackled some of these issues. And I think she's just a very smart woman and can offer us some insight to this. So let's give her a buzz. Oh, this is huge for me personally. This episode of How I'm Gone is brought to you by TaskRabbit. Oh, baby, let me tell you something. This is not a joke. I use TaskRabbit a lot because I can't do anything. You need some art hung? TaskRabbit. You need something put together? A cabinet? Got to reach that cheese grater on the top shelf? TaskRabbit. Anything you need, TaskRabbit can take care of it for you. How it works, TaskRabbit connects you with skilled taskers in your area. They can help you move. They can assemble furniture, repairs, yard work, mounting, and more. You can search for a tasker based on cost, skill set, availability, and past client reviews so you know exactly who's showing up and can have confidence that they know what they're doing because taskers have assembled over 3.4 million pieces of furniture, completed 700,000 home repairs.

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Jason, the temps are warming up. It's getting hot out there. Summer always changes how I get dressed. I need pieces that feel lighter, more breathable, and they're just easy, but still put together. I don't look like a slob. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high-quality essentials that feel and look amazing. Breathable linen and soft organic cottons. Well-made basics, but without the luxury markups. That rare balance where everything feels elevated. but still effortless. Yeah, Chris, linen season is here. I wore a linen blazer to dinner a few nights ago in the warm California sun. But you know, you got that Italy trip coming up this summer and quality European linen pants and shirts. Upgrade that look starting at just $34. You know, if you get a nice linen suit, a little t-shirt underneath it, some chill shoes, you're looking good, but you're staying cool. The inside of your special areas are nice and dry as you turn up with your besties. So elevate that summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com slash how long for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns, even on a nice holiday now available in Canada. That is Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash how long. That'll get you free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince punto com slash how long. Hi. How are you? Good. How are you? Oh, you know. What a day. What a week. What a month. Yeah. Yeah. We could go on. No. So, I mean, how are you feeling in general? Jason and I. You know, we talked about obviously, you know, what's going on in our little intro. But I think part of the reason we're happy that this time it worked out with you is that you are a fellow white person who can actually offer something intelligent here. No, no pressure. Maybe assumption makes an ass of you and me. The bar for intelligence on this podcast is already set pretty low. So you should be.

She'd be more than fine. But Chris was saying that you guys posted a Goop podcast yesterday sort of covering some of this as well. Yeah. We sent a newsletter and just a Black Lives Matter newsletter and posted resources. And then we've done, you know, of course, never enough. We've done a fair amount on white privilege. Obviously, our listeners are predominantly white and female. And we certainly have a lot of, you know, if you look at our Instagram posts, we certainly have a lot of people who are responding, all lives matter. So we have those, those women, certainly not all of our readers, but some percentage of our readers are not understanding the conversation. And obviously that's deeply. traumatizing to black people and our black employees and minority employees. And so it's our, it's my job. It's Gwyneth's job. It's, you know, other white editors jobs on our team to, to get those women on the bus. And, you know, it's really not the job of our black employees to have to argue with, with those women about why black lives. matter as well it's it's my job you know i think white people we need to be responsible for white people here um and so that's the work that we're trying to do yeah and i think that's exactly the work that you guys should be doing you know it's the perfect job for you guys you have you have a huge platform of women who you know most of them are very amazing intelligent um and hot women but you know there's always some people who don't get it and you know it's it's our responsibility to educate them instead of just shunning them or saying you know fuck you unfollow me if you don't like this shit exactly like we can't we it's completely that is a completely appropriate response from every person of color on instagram it is not an appropriate response from us and

You know, we, us being a brand that is largely identified as being white. So it's, it's, we can't, we can't, we can't condone that, but we can't shut it down. And the only way to sort of get everyone on the same page is through consistent and ongoing conversation. And similarly, like, you know, I'm, I'm grateful that we, our brand that. believes wellness needs to extend to everyone and that our future needs to be built on equality and so we have been this isn't our first time addressing these topics but it's like it just has to be something that we do in an ongoing way and it will be disappointing you know if brands and white people who are paying attention this week kind of forget about it and go back to you know quote unquote business as normal because yeah We're so far past that. I think that is something to be concerned about. I wonder if it's possible. I think for a lot of people, this is maybe the biggest moment they've seen of something like this. But I do think it's easy for all of us to slip back into old patterns because it's comfortable. And it's the way the system was built. It's systemic. And I think that for a lot of the people who do not understand, the white people who do not understand, if they were to explore or go deep into their bodies to understand why they're triggered by this, it's because they're terrified of losing the safety and security that they've had and the accrual of wealth that they've had for centuries. I get it. That's terrifying. That's what privilege is. It's acknowledging that it's time that we set that down. And, you know, it sounds trite when someone like me says it, but we can't all be free until everyone is free. And so it's the dismantling of that. And for a lot of people, the power, money that we've accrued through privilege and then being able to

to say, I get that I didn't, I didn't create the system, but I've certainly benefited from the system. It's my responsibility to dismantle the system. Well, I think we're all, I mean, you may be more than us, but I mean, you have the opportunity to do that. You know what I mean? You actually have a platform where people care and want to hear from you. And I think that, you know. Chris, we have a platform too. We do have a platform. The few, the proud compared to Goop. But just like Goop, we do have, I don't know what our demographic numbers are on this show, but I'm sure there are a lot of white males on board and they need guidance. Some of them are fucking up and we need to be there to tell them you're fucking up. No, it's true. Because they'll listen to us. Well, that's the thing that we've struggled with, Elise, I think, is that this podcast is kind of, you know, it's funny. That's the point. It's not serious. We're not under normal circumstances. This is not the daily. We're not trying to tackle the world's great issues. But, you know, Jason and I have come to terms with the fact that it's like, well, this is an important moment and we do have people listening, so we should talk about it. I don't know. It was an interesting, you know, it was a little bit of a struggle for me, to be honest. Yeah. And but but like you're saying, I mean, there's there's no question that I, a 37 year old white upper middle class male from a two parent household has benefited for my entire life. And not that I didn't recognize that before, but I think it's, you know, coming, admitting what that gives you is different than understanding that it exists. Yes, exactly. And then understand being willing to say, I get that, that, you know, my kid, you know, I was, I've been talking about this a lot on my own Instagram, I have two boys, seven and, and four. And, you know, there's a lot of consternation among parents about kids falling behind, etc. And I'm like, let my child fall behind. He is a white privileged boy who goes to a private school. And I'm not super concerned about

his ability to compete when there are kids across the country who don't have internet access and don't have computers and have been completely at sea for the past several months like yeah let my kid read below grade point average you know like that my son is not the child that i need to worry about it's it's the fact that he's going to continue to excel in uh in a world that is yeah And it's so complex, you know, education, environment, housing, like every single factor of our system is fucked up. I feel like having a child, and mercifully, Jason, I don't have any. That you know of. That I know of. Thank you for that. That's directed more to me than Chris, but sure. But I do think that that puts the whole – I mean, I think that even when we've been doing this podcast during the quarantine, I think that child rearing has been a big topic when the guest has a child because I think it really changes things. in every way. But with this, especially there's, there's, you know, it brings a whole nother level to this shit. Um, and, and I, I think that, that I'm sure you're exposed to some parents who are only concerned about their child's reading level and not, and not, you know, on the, that concerned about the rest of it. Yeah, I don't even know that it's like that it's that people aren't concerned about. But I think that they get so freaked out about their own safety and their and their child's safety and this uncertain world that was always has been uncertain and now feels more uncertain. But it's just like people can't move themselves out of that space. And not that not that these people deserve our compassion. I think that that's where it comes from. It's not out of hate. It's about in group love. You know, it's about like. I, it's about prioritizing the people in their life and feeling like they have nothing that they can't lift their gaze from that. But yeah. And I think that white parents in particular, it's like, we have been trained and white people in general, there is, people are taught that race is a shameful thing to talk about, which is fucking weird. Right? Like, so what's like, it's like wasps and money. You just don't.

Yeah, but what it has done is create this strange cultural effect where it's like, if you're in a store and it's full of white people and there's a black person on the ground having a heart attack, most likely the people are going to be like the man in the purple shirt or the man in... It's like the black man is having a heart attack. We cannot bring ourselves to even say that because I think we are raised on this myth of colorblind. I don't see color. Race doesn't matter. We're all humans. And sure, that is all true, but not the way that we have been taught because we have been taught to sublimate all of these hard conversations and pretend like it didn't happen. And so we're raising our kids to be completely... ill-equipped to talk about these things and the research is staggering in terms of when you give groups of kids um it's like fourth and fifth graders you give them You either teach them how to be colorblind where it's like race doesn't matter. We're all the same, et cetera. Or you say some of us are different. We have different skin tones. We have different backgrounds. We come from different countries. We have different languages and cultures. And it's really important to understand that and ask for story and respect our differences. And then you show those groups of kids a video of a black child being tripped on a soccer field. And the color, I think it's 50% of the colorblind kids say that's, and it's overtly, he's overtly sort of bullied and targeted in this video. 50% of the kids in the colorblind group say that's discrimination and that's a big problem. And 80% of the kids in the other group are taught to notice and respect difference. um flag it as discriminatory so it's like we're just seeding this in our children by refusing to talk about it and it's the opposite of the opposite of normalizing the discussion about race yeah if we're if no one's communicating anything about it at all nothing is going to improve at all exactly like we're just pretend we're sublimating the problem and like we need to get it out air it out address the trauma

and get comfortable with having these hard conversations and get comfortable with the fact that we don't know what to say or do. And when we don't know what to say or do, we need to go to our white friends who are getting educated, reading books, examining this in their own lives, and they can point the way. Or go to Black educators, pay for their classes, pay for their books, follow their list of resources and do the work. You can't ask them. directly like do not dm them and say like where do i start do the work first like do the work they've laid it all out yeah it's there to be found i think is what you know what i mean i think that i think that that is let me google that for you yeah exactly i mean i think that the the assumption that you're able to lean on uh black friends or black people in general during this time is really fucked like that is just not that is not the I'm not going to bang your line and ask what I can learn from you right now. That is not the appropriate response to what is going on. Like you said, the information is readily available. It's not hard to find and then digest. It's just not that complicated. I was in Canada for most of the quarantine. And I returned back to New York last night. And this shit is wild. Did you live in New York for a time? Yeah, I lived in New York for almost 10 years. I've been in LA for almost 10 years as well. But I lived in New York right after college. And yeah, I can't imagine being in New York during COVID or now this. What was it like? It's just, I mean, and I talked a little bit to Jason about this earlier, but it's just kind of like, you know, the stuff you're seeing on Instagram and shit, like obviously, you know, I got back yesterday afternoon and this morning I went for a run to kind of see what was going on. You know, there's not cars on fire in the middle of the day, but it does feel, it just feels bad. You know, it just feels bad for lack of a better term. I think that it's.

I think the COVID thing started it, but it feels a little zombie land and eerie. And now I think that with everything boarded up and just people on edge, I think it feels extra volatile. But I don't, I, you know, and I just, I saw the guys downstairs at Mask Books. I live above this bookstore and I talked to these guys for a little while and they've been here the whole time. I think what we talked about and what I would love to talk to you about is what do you think is next? Where do we go from here? Obviously, we don't have much leadership. It feels a little bit directionless in a lot of ways. It's like, what is the end game? What is the result that we want? Well, I think that one of the most important things to remember is that everyone wants peace. And in the same way that people who are feeling threatened by the looting or this idea of violence in our neighborhoods, this is what Black communities feel like every day, right? So first of all, I think it's this understanding of we all want peace. Again, none of us can have peace until we all have peace. So how do we get there? Then I think I'm following organizations. There's, again, so many issues. There's like, how do you address the rampant segregation in our neighborhoods that then informs the makeup of our schools and the funding of our schools? There's so many systemic issues that we have to... undo one by one and address uh fence line communities minority communities are are typically like all of our toxic waste all of our landfills that's where it all goes those kids are being you know poisoned um which addresses sort of this iq gap we also have we have got to fix that um then we have sort of this issue of defund the police and just sort of the

what's happening there. And that's where I think we'll probably start based on where we are in the protests. Yeah, I was going to say, I think that the defund police thing is probably the most, I feel people could wrap their heads around that a little more. You know what I mean? But the issues of unions and the money involved and the protection that goes on is pretty gigantic. And I wonder how you really chip away with that. Um, now, you know, like, I, I don't know how you start. Well, the good thing about it, and I don't know if you guys know Dray McKesson or campaign zero or their work, which is that for five years, they've been publishing. It's really hard to get this information, but the publishing stats about police violence in the hundred biggest cities in the country. And, um, They are they're about to start a big campaign called, I think, Eight Can't Wait. I don't think they've launched it yet. But the idea that so this is often a local level. It can be solved on a local level, which is why it's so imperative that people vote in all of their elections, because that's where the police, the funding of the police comes from. That's where. The DAs are elected, et cetera. And that's where all of these courts, like one of the things that's happened in this wash from conservative America is they've been taking over courts all over the country quietly. And that's where all of these incredibly aggressive sentences are put on black men, et cetera, for minor, minor infractions. So this is a staggering statistic I learned yesterday. 5% of crime is violent. Just 5%. Yeah, that's actually fucking crazy. Isn't that crazy? Yeah, we have what we have now is this militarized police. And like in the instance of George Floyd, for example, that was a totally fucking bizarre, you know, knee on neck. But like, and I think it's like 80% of cities, it is legal to put someone in a chokehold or stranglehold. It's illegal for the police to do that. And many police.

In many cities, it's legal. It's allowed for them to escalate to deadly force without trying other interventions first. In some cities, they're allowed to shoot at moving cars, which can be incredibly dangerous for bystanders and for innocent people, etc. So there are all these things that mayors can shut down without any legislation. They can do it overnight by making those things not allowed. And then that allows DAs to prosecute. but none of these police officers are ever held accountable because they're operating within like the police Bible. They're doing things that are allowed. And they're protecting each other with the bro code. Yeah. And then they're protected because they can't say, well, he can't do that because it's allowed. So it's fucked. I mean, I think that that, that especially is, I mean, you know, A lot of the reason these guys, even if they do get charged, they get off. It's because, I mean, these unions are so well-funded. I mean, they're paying, you know, the lawyers are some of the highest paid and highest power in the world. And it's, you know, it's just that if the system is rigged, then they will win. It's a very simple equation, really. Yeah. But we can vote. We can vote on a local level. So many of us skip local elections and don't get educated about who these people are. And we can. put an incredible amount of pressure on our mayors. And, you know, campaign, I strongly encourage everyone to look at campaign zero. It's staggering. There's just, and then it's just, it's bias training. It's like understanding. I can't remember what DeRay told me yesterday, but like we all have this idea in our heads about police approaching a parked car and how dangerous that is. Right. It's in every movie, but that they're going to get shot. I think that they, they, that was based on early, like bad research. And now it's become part of our consciousness. But the reality is it's like one in 6 million. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's a, that's a staggering. You're right. That's a fucked up number. It's so much of this police violence is like around pulling people over and then approaching them with fear and trepidation, but it's like not based on reality. And we propagate that myth. No, I mean, that's, that's been, I mean, that's,

ingrained in our psyche from movies and television. And I mean, even, you know, like I watched a lot of cops on TV growing up. Like that's, that's every scene. That's every scene is that, that kind of scenario where it's a approaching the door, hands out the window, you know, all that shit. Exactly. And then when we talk about defunding the police and people are like, Oh my God, are you crazy? Like they're, they're holding the line. The reality is there is just not very much violence. And no, I mean, these guys, these guys charged. No, these guys are fucking, they look like they're going to war. I mean, they have $3,000 worth of fucking tactical gear on. Like, you know, they're in Fallujah. And it's just not, it's not, I mean, you know, it's not necessary, obviously, but I also think that, that it's that kind of. That just gives you an inflated sense of power and ego. You know what I mean? And an inflated sense of danger. It's terrifying. I mean, think about people's cortisol levels when they're engaging on both sides. Think about how charged that is. No, for sure. I mean, absolutely. But the access to that and the way these guys look is just, I mean, it's crazy. And I think that, unfortunately, I think that's why a lot of these cops get into it to begin with. You know, they fetishize that whole shit, you know, that whole thing about obviously the power, but also like all the toys that come with it. Yeah. But like even I had no idea what a rubber bullet really meant until this week. Yeah. Which has really blown my fucking mind. Like I assumed a rubber bullet was the size of a bullet. You know what I mean? Like that's because of the name. You know, when I saw a picture of a rubber bullet and the shit is as big as a credit card. you know, and thick, like a Coke can. Like it's, it blew my mind. I had no idea what that was. I still think a lot of people don't really realize what that is. Yeah. I mean, it is crazy, but I think that when, you know, we're talking about $3,000 worth of gear and yet teachers and public schools across the country have to pay for their own school supplies for students. It's like.

where are our priorities and how are we not addressing all of this stuff upstream? That part of it too has been very eye-opening, I think, just also post-COVID because there was so much trouble with getting pretty basic medical supplies for frontline workers. And again, you see these guys roll out in tanks with $3,000 worth of gear on and you're like, well... What? Like, I don't, this doesn't really, this doesn't compute, you know, and I think that that kind of stuff, I think that's a little easier to understand for people, like a layman, you know, that doesn't get into crazy policy or government or vote, you know what I mean? It's a pretty baseline understanding, like, of where money is being distributed and where it's being spent. I hope that people are seeing that stuff and responding to it because I think that's really easy to process and it's out there for sure. Just understanding what it would feel like to have that presence in your neighborhood all the time and what that does. I think that's the hardest thing to relate to, the daily life portion of it. I don't think that, again, I've never experienced that, obviously. But I think that is the hardest thing for people to understand because if it doesn't happen to you, it's very hard to imagine that happening to anyone. I think when you live in New York, you hear a lot about stop and frisk. That's a big issue here. And that's something you will actually physically see, especially in the subways or whatever. Obviously, that's the same thing in some ways, but that issue seems a little bit more prevalent because you physically see it. but what is that i mean like what is that how do we have that policy it's crazy no it's it's i mean it's literally no it is yeah i mean you're right there's no other way to put it it's fucking crazy but like it i guess i think about it personally because it's like you know i used to do a lot of drugs i would always have fucking drugs on me

You know what I mean? And I'm like, you know, and you think about getting stopped and then you realize like, oh, they're not going to stop me. Why? I'm just, I'm walking down the street. Why would anybody stop me? You know? And I think, I think that that is the true definition of white privilege in this case. Yep. And what that means. But, but I think that these policies are just, I mean, you know, they're, they're very old and they're, and they're, they're, you know, there's people in power that believe in them and that's going to be the hardest thing to get past. Yeah, and it threatens the sanctity of their life and their future security in a way that's so profoundly and deeply held. And it's this idea of if I can control the world through my privilege and if I give that up, then my future is uncertain. And that is a really big leap for people. But that's where we're at. And they're okay with other people's lives staying uncertain as long as yours is not affected. Exactly. I mean, we're very selfish as people in this country. And you don't want anything to affect your outlook or your day-to-day life. And we're all guilty of that. That's a hard thing to avoid. But the quality portion of it is interesting. Really just not being okay with that is really strange to me personally. Just being like, no, that's not going to work. That part is odd. It's alarming how many people feel that... people with darker skin don't deserve a seat at the table of everybody else is, you know, whatever, you know, there, there's no reason why they should honestly feel that way unless they are, you know, their, their heart is full of hate for some reason. Or they just have this idea that like affirmative action, which is completely toothless.

has accomplished equality or that it's a meritocracy because look at these kids who grew up in, you know, South central LA who made it to Harvard. Like they take those people and turn them into that are extreme exceptions and then make them poster children for what is possible. And it's like, well, like, did you have to, you know, and it's also sort of the cutting the line mentality of like, these people are, I've been in line, like I'm in line, they should get in line. And it's like, well, What bodies did you have to crawl over to get in line? It's just going to require discomfort. That's something that I wanted to talk to you about specifically was that type of representation of people and what ideas you guys have for how that type of representation can be improved because there has been a lot of great improvement for that leaps and bounds in every commercial and subway ad and every, you know, whatever bra company ad on my Instagram page has good representation of all races, but you can kind of tell when a brand is doing it because they think it's the right thing to do versus it being something that they actually want to do or just doing without even thinking about it. And I think that's like the next plateau that we have to overcome. Is when you can tell that it's being done not because they want to, but just because it's a good business idea or their cultural officer told them, you know, you guys need an obese person and an Asian guy and a token black person. Exactly. Yeah. Or the tokenism, like moving past tokenism to two. I think that we are living in a time of increased transparency across the board, right? And it is wonderful and scary at the same time. I mean, and obviously in the age of social media, when people can see things and put out bad, fake information, right? Like there's just unprecedented times. And I think people really want...

transparency and truth and the information so they can make up their own minds. And I think that what we'll see from businesses, and this is something that we think about and talk about all the time, and we are not done with the work at Goop, is publishing diversity numbers openly. So, you know, the bra company, like what do their diversity numbers look like in terms of their hiring? And is it just, you know, parked in hr or is this a major company priority and objective um and for us it is and we still have so much work to do but like wellness again like this isn't this cannot be for the affluent these this is about like access to clean water access to good whole food um trauma work and so that we're not taking our pain and projecting it onto future generations and it's about environmental health and these are acutely tied to race and access and privilege. And so we also make beautiful clothing and skin cream. It's hard to stitch it all together and it's messy, but we're trying in an ongoing way and trying to hold ourselves accountable. But we have to do the work along with everyone else. It's not going to happen in a day, but that's the point. It's not going to be satisfied by a donation to Black Lives Matter and the Black Square, it has to be a different way of moving forward and a different sensibility and a different way of thinking. It has to be built into the fiber of our companies and brands. And millennials and future generations are going to demand it because if we're not there, we're almost at a point, I think, in this generation where white people will become the minority in this country. And another thing that I think is terrifying to white people and why we cling so desperately, like we're not, we're not going to be the majority really soon. And so if your business doesn't reflect that, then you have no business, you know? I mean, do you, have you, have you found it? I mean, is it these last couple of months I'm sure have been challenging.

but I think this week especially, it's like, what is your opinion on what the move is? Obviously, it's not business as usual, but I think that there's a lot of people that are very confused about what to do. You know what I mean? Do I say anything? Do I not say anything? Do I push things off? You know what I mean? And I think there's a lot to be talked about there. I'm sure you guys have had some serious talks about it all. Yeah. So I think silence is never the answer. And I think a big part of this is going to require a willingness to get uncomfortable and to have hard conversations, to look with your family, with your friends, to dig deep and evaluate your own biases. I mean, there are tons of incredible books, I think, for white people. The best book to start with is White Fragility by Robin DiAngelo. And it's sold out, but it's worth the wait. She is a white woman in the Pacific Northwest. He's been a race educator for decades. And it is a hard read and it is an essential read. But I would start there and then move on to something like Leila Saad's Me and White Supremacy, which is a book that you do. You don't just read. Short book, short chapters, and the ideas that you look at everything from the way, you know, she posted something on Instagram that was like staggering this morning. It's her six-year-old son's birthday. She's a Black Muslim woman who lives in Qatar. And it's her six-year-old's birthday. And she's like, I'm not going to post a picture of my six-year-old son so that you all can say. how adorable and cute he is. And then when he grows up, you'll all be scared of him. And, but her book is like, and it's great because it gets into white centering, white saviorism, appropriation, these things that I think a lot of us participate in all the time daily. And like appropriation is something that we've had to look at really hard and think about at Goop because we've certainly.

fucked up um most a lot of wellness is appropriated from other cultures from Native Americans from many you know from China like pretty much every Asian South Asian country India etc so um well I didn't even I didn't even think about that and that's so obvious though like wellness specifically like I'll you know You're right. A lot of that stuff is like rooted in Eastern Native American. It's in South American. It's not it's not white. And so we bring a lot of like, you know, lab science to it around longevity and stuff like that. But a lot of the traditions are not ours. White people are good at branding, though. We are really good at branding. That's our number one thing after racism. We're really good at it. Exactly. And then taking, it's funny, we're really good at branding appropriation, like from black culture. I mean, that's like all, and from black music and it's, it's really deep. And so, yeah, so that's where I think people need to start. It can be overwhelming, but I think it starts with, you know, talking, it starts with yourself, like talking, thinking about yourself, examining your own biases and your privilege, talking to your family, dealing with your family and yourself. And then you're in a better position to change the, you know, bring it out into community. The family thing is really going to come up because this is not, you know, this is such a big issue. It would be impossible to not discuss, you know, like I think that even if you don't have that sort of. oh, that's sort of like open communication with your family. I would find it hard to believe that if you're talking to them right now, this can be avoided. Yeah. I'm about to go see my family. I'm leaving tomorrow to go to see my family in Atlanta. And I know that that stuff is going to happen. I'm pretty sure my parents will fall on the right side of history, you know? Yeah. But it doesn't mean that we shouldn't talk about it.

If you're going to talk about politics in general, I would say this is more important. Obviously, it's political, but people discuss the president with their parents or whatever. It's kind of not. That's the thing. It's become a political issue. When we published our newsletter yesterday, there were certainly readers who were like, I don't care about politics. I'm like, this is not about politics. This is about human rights and equality. No, but I think it's a subtle point because I think that right now we're also in this identity politics war and people are so attached and so binary about that that they can't see the subtlety. They can't see like, oh, I can be a Republican to care about fiscal responsibility. a small government. And I can also see that this is a major human rights issue and, um, and I can be both. So, well, that's the, I mean, I guess that's what I mean then it's like, it's been politicized, you know, and I think that maybe, maybe you're right. That's the issue. It's like, I don't think that, um, yeah, the, the, I don't think any political party values include racism or they shouldn't, they shouldn't, but they shouldn't. And that's what's happening. At least not publicly, but I think that you're right. I think that that is something that people could separate. I mean, that's what was happening with COVID too, is becoming political. It's like, guys, it's a fucking virus. Like it's not, this isn't a right or left issue. This is a, like this literally affects everyone. And I think that this issue is the same thing. This doesn't like, your party shouldn't have a say in this. Yeah. But unfortunately, it is political in the sense that we know where a lot of these policies come from, although all the Democrats are not. We have blood on our hands for sure. So it's not like we saw we didn't mop this all up, even, you know, with Obama in eight years like we there's it's so deep and so entrenched that.

And it speaks to it that like so many people, vast majority of people are like, I don't even know what's happening. I lack the language. I don't understand the context. I don't know why I'm being, you know, yelled at for asking questions. We're just so behind, like so behind. It's like time that we catch up, you know? I mean, people are fucking mad, you know? People are fucking mad. And I think a lot of this stuff is going on on the internet where people are really mad, extra mad. And especially, I mean, it's going on the internet more than it normally would be because we're stuck in our houses. So it's a really, it's an interesting time to try to educate yourself on something that requires, you know, conversation after reading. Yeah. It's a tough time. You can't really, you know, some of this stuff doesn't translate well to Twitter or an Instagram story. It's, like you said, it's just deeper than that. And it's hard to form a community when there is a military curfew in place. Yeah, exactly, yeah. Being home at 6 p.m. kind of kills the whole community thing. So does COVID. I mean, what a time when we all need to be able to come together and it's like, Jesus, now we have to solve this stranded in our homes, you know? Well, I mean, that's the... Another thing that I feel like is happening, it's like, you know, obviously COVID is still, still in our minds, but it feels like that shit is kind of canceled. COVID is not in our minds. COVID is done. I mean, COVID is done, but the pop, like we still can't go about our business. So it's, it's part of our lives at least let's put it that way. You know, and I think that that is, it's, it's, it's just kind of incredible. It's honestly, it's truly incredible that all this is happening at one time. And the gravity and magnitude of all of it is like staggering. I know. We might as well clean it all up at the same time while we're at it. I mean, no, there's no choice. That's the thing. I don't think there's much of a choice. Go ahead. No, please, please. No, but that's what I think. And now this has obviously been fueled, but during COVID.

And understanding how much pain and suffering it was causing and being in a place of privilege where I still have my job and I haven't gotten a real pay cut, that there are people across the country and world who are really struggling. And I would maintain that a vast majority of those people were struggling before. were on the line before. And so, you know, I think that COVID and this, this pot, the COVID pause, and now what's happening in our streets, it's all, we can't have it be for naught. Like we are being given an opportunity. Like we have been brought to our knees. And I, this is maybe an unpopular thing to say, but when Trump was elected, my feeling about him was that he's an, a dangerous. and unconscious martyr but that his role here is exposing to us everything that we didn't want to see our face but that has always been there and that we he is holding up a mirror he's giving us a horrendous facial and it is like holy shit look at all of the stuff that we've suppressed and that's been there right like existing on our skin. And it is our chance. This is our chance. He has brought us to our knees. And how do we clean this up and build a different structure and a different system? And I really hope that we have the leadership we need in November to help us and that people are ready to do that work because otherwise we're going to end up in the same place or worse. in the not too distant future um but it is an opportunity it's terrifying but we are being turned inside out and it's a chance like we have a chance here to really evaluate all of these systems and to completely try something new i mean i think that's a very positive way to look at it and it actually makes me feel better to think of it that way um and we all have the time and we're we're able to do all of that while you know paying

paying our rent from unemployment checks so let's um you know let's take full advantage of this time yeah i mean not have it be a waste you know yeah no i mean you're right i think that i think that um purpose is is always good so i think that if it's looked at that way then then it could be positive for everyone and i mean I think that the shit yesterday, I mean, the Trumpito, the speech and the Bible holding and shit. Oh, my God. It's just like, I mean, it's so insane that it's like comedic and scary at the same time. Like watching him hold a book like he's never held one before is, I mean, it was incredible. It's monumental. But like what it took to get there is terrible. But I just think that people are. There's just no I mean, there's nothing leading us. You know, there's no there's no one that is like kind of speaking to the country in a way that we need to hear. And I don't know if there is anyone that can right now. Yeah. I mean, my hope of I hope that Biden announces his vice president pick soon and. I think he was, I don't know, I don't know much about like how, how campaigns are run, but I'm, I'm sure he's being really thoughtful and I hope that he is ready to come out and offer, you know, he did yesterday and sort of condemning Trump, but like that he was ready to come out swinging and to offer the sort of leadership and a plan for a rebuild that we need and that can get people on both sides excited. Do you realistically think anyone could beat Trump? Yes. Who do you think Biden is going to pick for VP? I mean, it seems like... He said that he was going to have a woman be vice president, right? Yeah. I mean, I would like to see him pick Kamala or Stacey Abrams. I think...

This is, but this is, it's like the world changes every, you know, a month ago it would have been like Elizabeth Warren would be great at like, and I think she needs to go in the cabinet, but I don't know. I mean, I think that's why he hasn't announced yet because it's like what, it's still really hard to understand what we need. Yeah. Five years ago he could have said Ghislaine Maxwell, you know, and then he would have had egg on his face. Life comes at you fast. Oh my God. That is a fucking crazy documentary. I actually thought, I actually, I haven't finished it yet. We talked about this, Jason, I talked about this a little bit. I thought it was kind of like really dark and depressing, but not really much new information. That's true. Well, yeah. I wanted a little more, I wanted a little more star power. For lack of a better term. I just feel like they couldn't do it. But they sort of essentially were like, here is everyone who's been in his company. And it's like a list of known monsters. I mean, the fact, though, that's what I'm saying. The fact that this guy is dead and you still can't say the real shit in the documentary is pretty wild to think about. But I mean, I've heard theories that that ring and the whole thing they were involved in is much bigger than them. And it's still going on with different people at the helm. Like it's not going to go away just because he's dead. No, I think like that sort of activity again, like traumatized people traumatize. I think that there is, and that's another area that we have really like the trafficking of children and pedophilia and like another area where we just cannot talk about it. And so these things are sublimated and then people who are abused, abused, we all know this. And yet. We sweep it under the rug to make our day-to-day lives easier. I mean, no one wants to, I mean, that kind of, I mean, like I did, I guess though, I take that back because I did learn, I didn't realize he was going into basically like city neighborhoods near his gigantic palatial estate and recruiting. Like I didn't fully understand that part of it. And then obviously these young girls don't know the difference and like, you know, do it because they want the money.

I didn't fully realize that. And that is extra bad. Like that's extra, that's like extra hard to, to deal with, you know, because it's like, no one makes good decisions at 15 years old. We're all idiots, you know? And, and, and I think that like preying on that is really dark. Like that's, that's as low as it goes. That's as low as it goes. Also just like how complicated those things are because for, for women in particular and girls, because. And some, you know, you're desperate for attention and you're desperate to be noticed and to be picked and to be found special and attractive and all of those things. And then you feel complicit and like you created this for yourself. So, and you saw a lot of that in their testimony, like trying to separate themselves from who they were as a child and have compassion for themselves. And the fact that they were then recruiting others and it's just like, it's terrible. And, but we don't socially, like we don't, we lack the. the tools for that and um oh god you know they really they really could have held on to that one you know what i mean i feel like that i feel like that shit could have been put out after i i don't that's not what we needed right now that's just not that we all watched it of course because it's it's compelling i mean that that that case and him in general i mean it's it is it's just straight into my veins. I can't get enough. It's just so depraved and so crazy. And I just like, there's, I feel like we'll never get the full story, which I think keeps people compelled. Totally. And I mean, by all the people by association, including Trump and Woody Allen and Clinton and like all of those people, like what is the truth? You know, I think we're at this point in the culture where we're like enough, like we need the truth and then we can make up our own minds. But. Absent that, it is like a deep itch to know what the fuck is going on. Luckily, I was able to cut it with Selling Sunset Season 2. So I was able to...

I was able to get... We all have our own versions of meditation and self-care. Just numbing. You guys can worry about all this acupuncture and shit. I'm going to just... Selling sunset is my namaste, if you will. But I think that that is like... I mean, the need to see something that is not depressing is kind of what wellness means now. Like in this moment. Yeah. I think it's like, I don't think, obviously that doesn't mean ignore or, or suppress, but I do think that it's like, we're looking at the news all day and it's all bad. And we're, we're looking inward to see what we can do and how we can process this. But I mean, it's, it's, it's crushing, you know, it really is like on the psyche at least. No, it is. And it's, it's. One of those, and I think we're all, we're all getting that lesson in, in yeah, what does wellness even mean? Because it's obviously, it's a concept that's been co-opted by products or tools and all of the stuff that you need to consume. But the reality is it's like, wellness is like, how, how is your body? How do you feel in your body? What's your state of mind? And I think as we go through this whole experience from COVID. to the protests, et cetera, it's taking that time to tune in. It's really, it's like, where am I? How am I doing? I mean, I've been in bed for, I got out of bed to call you guys, but I just crashed. And we gave everyone the day off today. It's because it's exhaust, it is not sustainable. And you can also say, well, there are people who have to engage in this fight every single day. And so again, there's privilege. But people have to take breaks. Tuning into the news all day is truly terrible for us. Looking at it once a day, using the rest of the time to recharge so you can engage in a meaningful way and not just like this weekend. I was watching CNN. I was on social. I was frantically posting and reacting. It's not helpful.

I don't think we're giving ourselves. Yeah. I mean, I think you're right. I think that approaching it with in that manic way is not going to be good for anyone. You know, it is. It is. It's a lot to take in because it's all bad. It's all fucking bad. And like you said, of course, it's a privilege to take a break and no one would deny that. But I do think that it's. But everyone needs to. Yeah. No, of course. Yeah. We're in the acute part of a crisis. And, but this is a chronic disease and we, so it's, people can't just get through this next week or however long. I mean, I'm obviously like everyone worried this is going to escalate in a very awful way. But we have to be sustained. Like this is a practice. This is like engage, restore, engage, restore. It's a polarity, you know, it's like, it can't just be. We have to eat. We have to move our bodies. We have to talk. We have to feel our feelings and then continue to go and engage and do that process again. As a person who's, some would say, too logged on, this is truly the first time where I've been like, damn, this is too much. This is just too much, but I can't stop. It's compulsive. Well, it took this new world order to get you to take a break from Twitter. At least something good is happening, Chris. Yeah, exactly. The silver lining is that. But as I'm leaving tomorrow on this road trip, so I won't be able to be using my phone for hours a day as I drive. So I'm hoping to, you know. download some of these texts that you've suggested and take it in via audible or something so that, so that I'm using the time wisely versus, um, that's true. They can't. I mean, I'm not a big art. I've never used, I've never read or listened to an audio book in my life. Um, you're about to get real acquainted with it as you drive across America, my friend. I know. I think, I think it's time that I, time that I use the service. Cause I do think it's like the most.

Podcasts, I mean, no offense to our own medium, but I just, I can only take so much. So I feel like a book is a better, you're not a Kindle person, at least. No, I like physical books. You know, I'm not totally surprised by that. I like them too. I have a giant collection of them, but I feel like the Kindle is just a vital part of my life because when you travel and travel a lot, I just can't take three paperbacks with me in the tote bag. Totally. No, it's there. I like to write in books. I like to turn corners. I don't know. It's just hard for me to do that. She's a tangible girl. I'm a tangible girl, yeah. Look, we all love the feeling of some paper. The smell, you know, I understand. Wow, that was a serious conversation, guys. I know, but serious times. Yeah, we're going to have to get used to it, Chris. I know. No, this is our new reality. Elise, thank you so much for joining us. This was really, really insightful. And I'm happy to talk. Obviously, we didn't touch on that, but I'm a huge fan of the platform. Thank you. He's my goop girl. I'll save my story about getting a B12 shot in my ass at the Goop conference in New York for another time. But it was one of the highlights of my young life. So I got to see Gwyneth and get a B12 shot in the same afternoon. You know, so we can we can dream. You know, we can dream. Somebody pinch me. Exactly. But but honestly, thank you for your time. And thank you for your insight. And if you could tell people where they can find you online. Yeah. I am on Instagram, Elise Loon. And then I obviously I work at Goop and I co-host the Goop podcast with Gwyneth. And we've had a lot of the people we talked about today, like Robin D'Angelo, who wrote White Fragility, Layla Saad, who wrote Me and White Supremacy, Harriet Washington, who wrote a book about environmental racism. They've all been on the podcast. Bryan Stevenson, who wrote Just Mercy, Equal Justice Initiative.

Tune in. We need to step our game up after you gave that laundry list of intelligent, well... We have a few comedians and a handful of writers. We had a guy who started a t-shirt line a while ago and it's doing pretty good on Instagram. Thanks for putting us in our place, Elise. We need it sometimes. You have inspired us. Yeah, you really have, honestly. Have a wonderful afternoon, and yeah, we'll definitely have you back. Thanks again. Thank you. All right, bye. Bye, guys.