291. - Jo Ellison

All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian. And they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world. And they do it three times a week, Jason. Does that sound familiar to you? We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place. All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcast. or watch on YouTube. How long gone? What is it? About Thursday, Friday, something like that? About Thursday? Yeah, it's about Thursday, Jason. It's Thursday afternoon in New York, Thursday morning in beautiful, sunny Los Angeles. kind of combo rain snow has stopped if my window is telling the truth how many feet did you guys get this morning there's no feet it's just it's even worse it's just it's just just like shit you know what i mean it's just it's just weather you don't want to be out in um it doesn't it doesn't there's no sledding or snowing right uh or ski you know skiing i'm sorry but it's just it's just there just sludge through as you go to berries okay that's cool well over here i think it's about 75 Went on a nice little walk around the hood. You know, we'll see what happens. Maybe just take an edible and just tan my body. Who knows? Well, it's also, I can't, I'm having a hard time relaxing because of the rage pulsing through my veins at some news I just saw. Last episode, it was an emo festival. That made me happy. That made you happy. Yeah, that made me happy. This is, unfortunately, you know that I love the M&M's character franchise. Yeah, I think the M&M's were like the official candy of Proud Boys. Is that what it is? No, no, no. I just really, I've always liked M&M's and the yellow one specifically in his kind of, you know, ditzy demeanor. So you like M&M's so much.

This goes beyond just like eating the food. Yeah. You're talking about the character development, the story arc. Exactly. Yeah. Okay. All the colors and all the flavors and the way their lives kind of intertwine euphoria style. Exactly. This is my euphoria. But I read today that they're switching up like the characters are changing personalities and green, which is traditionally the sexy M&M that wore like white boots. is now a girl boss sneaker head. Oh, no. You can't do that. I agree. So what do you think? But my question is now, what sneaker are they going to put the green M&M in? Are they going to put her in the ALDs, the ALD New Balance? Are they going to put her in? I know exactly what it's going to be. What's it going to be? Jordan Heels. No, no, no. I think this is going to be a sneaker. So it could be Jordan 4s. Whatever Nike is where they put a little wedge heel in there, that's what it's going to be. I'm going to call my bookie and place a bet. on what shoe it's going to be. I need to check the odds in Vegas. It could be a Golden Goose. Honestly, Golden Goose feels a little upmarket for the M&M's franchise because they're trying to be more inclusive and just kind of, you know... Yeah, there's a lot of colors in the rainbow spectrum of M&M, but gold ain't one of them, am I right? They're a little more middle class. This is not the... That's a good point. We're not going over to the... Rocher household, you know, those highfalutin chocolatiers. No, that's what I love about M&Ms. It's just the regular man's, you know, like I remember my dad, you know, with the yellow bag of peanut M&Ms and a Diet Coke with the adding machine out. It's an honest candy for an honest white American is what it is. It's crazy that they're changing up the personalities and that seems like something that maybe just doesn't matter. Like, they don't need to. I don't think anyone cares about the personalities except me. I mean, I don't know. I mean, it's just all kind of funny. Yeah, most people, like, this is great PR for America to learn that M&Ms have personalities and character types. Yeah. Flaws and imperfections, but, you know, it's a shame that somewhere.

marketing company or you know an ad agency got paid you know roughly 124 million dollars by eminem to be like we should make the green bitch into shoes instead of like uh you know being sexy we should make her more of a che ds vibe luckily for me i don't eat candy anymore so i i'm not going to i won't be supporting them with these changes interesting you bring that up because the unreal candy family you know they have their own versions of the m and of course no one's more familiar than me and i feel like their character development might be a little bit different than just the standard kind of che ds sneakerhead girl boss vibe it's going to be more of This one teaches a mushroom foraging class. I think Unreal is more progressive, but I think they're also more about just great product, healthy product, and a higher price point. I think that's where they sit in the marketplace. We cost three times as much as M&M's, and we're marginally better for you. I would say more than three times, but that's a whole other thing. But it makes you feel good because you're buying them at Whole Foods and not the liquor store. Yeah. So I think that's really the main. And it works for me. I mean, I was buying, you know, I was up to a bag a day at one point, Jason. From your local bodega? Yeah, they don't have them at a bodega. That's the problem with Unreal. No, that's wrong. They got Unreal at some bodegas. In L.A. they do. In L.A. they do. I mean, if you get out of that little... nasty hood that you live in in new york and go to like a nicer area you'll see some unreals i put that on baby yeah i'm sure if i went to brooklyn heights uh you know i could dodge some strollers and pick up a bag of unreal for two dollars more than it should cost speaking of wellness chris yeah uh have you have you heard of the shock tea mat bro It's funny. Honestly, it's funny that this thing is coming around again because I'm not exaggerating. I had one of these eight years ago. I'm really not kidding. I believe you. Because my acupuncturist, when I had back problems, he suggested it to me, and so I bought one. I mean, that's where I heard about it originally. Okay. It's a great thing. So I just got one for bae. I was about to say, they don't make TJ's eyes in the mat. They don't.

You've got to get two and take them to the seamstress. You know what I mean? I called customer service to see if they had a Shakti XL, but they just informed me that that's the name of a jungle DJ. Jungleist DJ. That's so funny. I was literally about to say that. Okay, good. We're in sync. Shakti XL. But, no, they're great. I mean, they're affordable, too, right? They're like $60 or something. Yeah, something like that. And, you know, it helps support. Small business, but I have been doing it the last couple days. It's a journey, man, because you got the nude back on there. Do you hit it on the couch? Do you hit it on the floor? Okay, all right. Calm down, Usher. Calm down, Usher. Did you ever do the standing on it barefoot? Have you done that one? Bro, of course. I firewalked. You crazy? Okay, firewalking. Okay. So then my last question for you, why did you give up the Shakti? Why is it not a part of your everyday wellness plan? Because I think when the back stuff finally was healed and I felt better, I just kind of needed to like... I wanted to leave that stuff in the past to an extent. I really equate it with back issues, which I don't think is great mentally for me. I'd rather just move on. I'm sure it has a lot of other benefits, but I really got it for that purpose because that's how it was. sold to me so for you the shakti is a gateway drug you get that suddenly you're back in back pain zone next thing you know we're instead of taking four advils we're taking eight i don't want to talk about advil muscle and back pain unless they're sending unless they're sending me a box like i'm sponsored but yeah that thing is cool i'm glad you got one it's a useful tool yeah we'll see about that we'll see about that is it going to come up to uh sea ranch this weekend on our girls trip we'll see you know it's it's it's foldable throw it throw Throw it in the Volkswagen Golf and just see what happens. You know what I mean? It can't hurt to bring it. Luckily, I'm not driving all the way to Sea Ranch. No, I know, I know. That would be a long, long drive. You could put it in your Samsonite, though. It would fit. Did you get the little pillow with it? Do they all come with the little pillow? No, no, no. Pillow is extra. Did not cop it, but it's definitely...

It's on the to-do list. It's nice for the neck. I did. Thanks for reminding me when I'm editing this episode this afternoon. No problem. I did. I did have a just quick shout out. We had a, we had a how long gone alumni dinner last night that you were absent from. And I, it really hurt that you weren't there, but me, Roman, David show and Susan Alexandra at, at New York city classic Indochene, which have you been there before? Hell no. I'm not 50. We're taking you to Indochene next time. It's, it's, it's, it's the, stepsister of mr chow but it was bro it was fucking popping like every table packed and lit at 7 p.m isn't induchin just kind of like a a bygone era relic restaurant no but i think it's one of those places also the name feels I don't know. It does feel racist. I'm not getting that from Indochene, but sure. What is Cheen short for? Do you know? I don't know. But I think it's more of a restaurant that just goes through phases of being in vogue. You know what I mean? Because if you survive for this long, you're going to go through a lot of New York City turnover. Sure, sure. And I know you're a lover of Indonesian food, so what were some of your favorite kind of top picks that they were cranking out over there? Kale salad, of course. That's not a joke. That's not a joke. Roman suggested it, and she ordered for the table. And it was honestly pretty fucking good. I wasn't expecting much. Man, imagine going to dinner, Roman orders for the table. I'm on Chubb. It's literally, it felt like a GoFundMe kind of thing. But she was happy to do it. It wasn't even Chris Make-A-Wish night. Did you reach your goal to get that fender bender repaired on your GoFundMe, Chris? What did I say yesterday? Dude, I just had the biggest revelation. You know, call it a stoner thought, but I think I'm onto something here. Car insurance is like GoFundMe for a car repair. And I think if everyone got car insurance, then they wouldn't have to do a GoFundMe to fix your fender bender. All right, moving on. Unfortunately, no, we didn't reach our goal. All the money is going to be returned. We do have a guest today, the editor of the How to Spend It, the best supplement in the game, Joe Ellison, all the way from across the pond. Wait.

I hope ladders and ladder and layer different, different kind of supplement. This is a different supplement. This is a newspaper supplement. It's, it's every weekend in the financial time, the pink papers. Um, she is also the former editor and editor at British Vogue. Hopefully we can learn something from her, uh, today. I'm, I'm coming into this with an open mind and an open heart, Jason. So let's, um, let's give, let's give Joe a, uh, cross the ocean jingle. Lovely. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Squarespace. Obviously, Jason, you and I spend a lot of time on the World Wide Web, sort of our peers, our listeners, our friends, our colleagues, maybe even your parents if they're freaky. And if you're doing anything in the world, writing, taking pictures. I do topless boxing. You need a website. Exactly, a website that works, that does what it's supposed to do, that allows you to be creative but also business-minded. Jason, there's one place to go for that, Squarespace. Yeah, Chris, I'm over here. I'm modifying calculators and putting Claude inside of them so you could cheat at school. And I just want a place where I could, you know, have everything all in one place. I can have the SEO tools so those future graduates can find me. And, you know, I'm able to accept, quote, unquote, donations for my services that might be gray area. You know what I mean? And then email campaigns. Hey, I got a new 2.3 version upgrade. Boom, boom, boom. Get the analytics going. Raise some money. Show your investor all of your cool analytics of what's going on. They're going to want to get in early. And we can use Blueprint AI to make your website look as professional as your competition, if not more. So head to squarespace.com slash howlong for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use offer code howlong to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by a new podcast from the Guardian stateside with Kai and Carter. This is covering a lot of our bases, Jason. It's trying to slow down.

The news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's happening in the world. And I know you particularly have quite a lot of questions. A lot of questions. But how often? Because we do this podcast three times a week and that's a sweet spot. How many times do they do? Three times a week. And I have a feeling just based on the platform and these talking points that they're maybe going to be covering different stuff than we do. That's just a guess. The Guardian is not some billionaire owned. They're not afraid to say what they want to say, brother. Yeah, Rupert ain't sniffing around in what journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman are up to over there at Stateside. But yeah, listen wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch it on YouTube. It's three times a week. And who couldn't use more news? You know, especially when it's not, you know, from here, let's say. Give it a listen. Give it a listen. All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Quince. Jason, the temps are warming up. It's getting hot out there. Summer always changes how I get dressed. I need pieces that feel lighter, more breathable, and they're just easy but still put together. I don't look like a slob. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high-quality essentials that feel and look amazing. Breathable linen and soft organic cottons. Well-made basics but without the luxury markups. That rare balance where everything feels elevated. but still effortless. Yeah, Chris, linen season is here. I wore a linen blazer to dinner a few nights ago in the warm California sun. But, you know, you got that Italy trip coming up this summer and quality European linen pants and shirts. Upgrade that look starting at just $34. You know, if you get a nice linen suit, a little t-shirt underneath it, some chill shoes, you're looking good, but you're staying cool. The inside of your special areas are nice and dry as you turn up with your besties. So elevate that summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com slash how long for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns, even on a nice holiday now available in Canada.

That is Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash how long. That'll get you free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash how long. COVID's over in London. Is that what happened? I think the general idea is that we're moving into the endemic phase of illness. So yeah, we peaked, I think. And now we're confidently going into an endemic area. But like, you know, that's all. Sure. We've been there before. I've been following it closely, and I feel like the details change on a daily basis. Correct me if I'm wrong. The details change according to how much trouble the Prime Minister seems to be in each week. So this week, when everyone wants to fire him, he's suddenly allowing everyone to be a lot more relaxed. So you know what I mean? Sounds like my last relationship. Am I right, Joe? Your leader, Boris, does give us a lot to laugh at. And I know it's like a laugh-cry situation because we've dealt with that here in the U.S., of course, famously. But I really like how you guys refer to the building when you're talking about the government. Oh, really? Yeah, like you say 10 Downing. Okay. When you're – you know what I mean? Like the physical address. Yeah, the physical address. Exactly, the physical address. Yeah, I guess. Westminster is like what happens where the politics happen. Downing Street is where he lives. Yeah, I guess. I hadn't really thought about it. Yeah. Do you not refer to the White House as a kind of place of – No, no, no, no. Of course we – no, we do, of course. But there's something – I feel like it's just – Downing Street in particular, I feel like I see it more than I should as a person who doesn't live there. That's what I mean. I feel like it's like... Common nomenclature that I understand, but I think the context sometimes eludes me a little bit. Yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure. I know. Well, it's that terrible British habit of expecting everyone else to know exactly what we're talking about at all times. It's the old colonial mentality. Oh, I didn't know that. I didn't know that was a British thing. Come with us on our kind of strange, yeah, exactly, our strange euphemisms, which I'm sure you understand with that explanation. They're fun, though. They're more fun than ours. I'll say that. We don't have... Well, that's good. They're not quite as charming.

Charming, at least, is what I would say. In British writing and press, like in a lot of your stories, it'll have those specific kind of fun little slang words where that doesn't really appear in American journalism as much. Chris, would you agree? To an extent, yeah. I mean, I think that like, have you seen that Twitter account that chronicles every time like a new fake word is used in the New York Times? Yes. That's one of my favorites because they definitely want things to sound a certain way, and I think a certain kind of slang can make it, but they don't allow curse words. You know that. But sometimes the slang, I don't know what it means. Like, Joe, for example, I was reading your piece on quitting smoking. Yeah. You said that stopping or quitting smoking is a doddle, D-O-D-D-L-E. That is a word that we can figure out maybe what it might mean, but these American years don't know what a dawdle is. So could you help me out? It means like easy peasy. Okay, what does that mean? I don't know what that means. Joe, you just hit him with another word. You can't answer a question with a question. It means it's no bother. How does that mean? If it's such a fucking dawdle, how do you explain these cigarettes here, Joe? What the fuck? Are you not quitting? Is it not happening for you? Not quite yet. It's a vice that I'm still holding on to, but it's not going to last forever. Yeah, you just got to let it go. When it needs to go, it will go. Sounds a lot like my last relationship, John. There's a lot. Yeah, exactly. This relationship has many outlets. Jason's very popular. He's very popular. I won't bore you with that, but he's very popular. There was two other slang words from that very piece that I wanted to pull up. So after – this is one fear of mine in the world of smoking because the piece overall that you were talking about was just kind of like the key to quitting smoking is to literally just stop doing it. And that's kind of how it happens and don't rely on nicotine fads and vapes and all that shit. And it was good. But one downside you described after quitting was that you became a bit of a quote-unquote plumper. Oh, yeah. What does that mean, Jo?

Because we don't use words like that here in America to describe the body of a woman. Are you not allowed to go on your self-actualized journey into fatness? No, is that not allowed either in America? No, we do that very much on this podcast and catch a lot of heat for it. That's a big part of our show. And yes, some people like it, some people don't. But that's kind of what it's like to do this all the time. Because there's the spectrum of words to describe the body mass index of a person. confusing and complex. Like, plumper seems pretty inoffensive, but with the right tone for the right person can be devastating. I don't think you can say it to anybody. Oh, you can say it about yourself, but no one can say it to you. She's a little plumper. I don't think it would go down too well. I don't think that would work. No, I don't think so either. I wrote a column maybe four or five years ago, which probably I'd get. properly cancelled for today which was about telling my daughter that she ate biscuits at the same degree to which she'd been eating them as I'd been watching her that day she would get fat and I was like and it was this like f-bomb word I mean it was it really kind of ignited some real kind of yeah upset it was it was i mean yeah people don't like the word fat at all do they they don't but that's what we used to hear as kids uh yeah for sure yeah for sure i mean my parents i mean not even like in a cruel way there's just some facts to be discussed if you know what i mean yeah if you keep eating these chili fries yeah it's caloric intake we can't there's no it's a science there's it's not like it's it's you can't make that a negative and i mean obviously it can be used as derogatory watch me well i've i've been told that i've done Untold psychological damage and fat shaming and food shaming is just not an acceptable way to behave. So, yeah, she pushed back hard on the fat word. And I don't think if I said, you're looking a little plump, it would go down. It wouldn't be better? No, I think I'd be like signing up to many years of therapy. So you quit smoking and there was some weight gain associated with the smoking? Well, I mean, probably.

Because you look pretty svelte, but how many stone did you put on after you put the Marlboros down? Like none. No, come on. I mean, I hadn't lost the will to live. No, I think I just, I think probably like a couple of pounds. Yeah, yeah, yeah, normal. If you're one of those people who just smokes a lot, then you just realize how much shit you put in your face when you're not smoking. Drinking levels went up a lot. Water, I assume. Lots of water. No, just alcohol. Definitely. Going out for a glass of wine when you're not smoking means you consume a bottle really quickly. No breaks. I had to learn how to moderate that kind of thing. Yeah, exactly. And hopefully drinking at a bar that allows smoking indoors so you can catch a little secondhand, perhaps. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, get a little nibble. I genuinely don't miss it, though. It's interesting because I pass whatever it was. was the three-year mark in December. And you would have thought like lockdown, pandemic, stress. I mean, I'm not looking for congratulations, but I would like to say to anyone who's thinking about giving up. It was a fake congrats if it helped. Really easy. It's really easy. Well, in your story, Alexa Chung, a favorite of ours, who we're going to have to ask if you can get her email or phone number when we're done with the show, she described quitting smoking as, quote, A piece of piss. Yeah, she said it was a piece of piss. So could you explain what that means? That means hard, I think? I don't know. I think that means it's easy. It's even easier than a doddle. Yes. Okay, so it goes piss, doddle, and then what's the last? This is cool. I think a piece of piss is like the least amount of energy expended on anything. Right, right, right. It just kind of comes out of you without even trying. You don't have to push. Yeah, exactly. But your theory, I do like this theory though, or this kind of way of thinking about it because I'm sober and I've been sober for like five years. And I think there is some truth. I think there is some truth to what you're saying though.

You've got to just do it. Yeah. You've got to make the decision for sure. Like you've got to engage with the decision that you've made. And then I think once you've accepted it, it's like anything. Once you're holding on to something and you're fighting it and you're acting in a kind of way that you're kind of denying yourself something, then it won't happen. But I think once you've decided like enough, fuck it, I'm done. It can work. Do you feel like your life has improved? I'm a lot richer, I reckon. It must be, right? Oh, I like that. Now we're talking. You're saving. You weren't getting the cartons at Duty Free. You were just going down to the shop. No, weirdly, I never bought Duty Free because I was always so grossed out by the idea that I was actually going to... That's when you know you have a problem. It's like, I don't do needles. I'll snort the heroin. I don't do needles, though. Yeah, needles is a lie. Well, do you guys understand how frustrating it might be to somebody who's maybe reading that story or hearing this advice to be like, oh, you want to quit this? Just do it. Just do it, man. Of course. No, of course. Because people pick that story up or they've been writing articles about quitting all this stuff for years and you're like, all right, maybe I can find a chunk of information that will be beneficial to my specific brain and how it works. And then when it says just quit and just do it, you're like, is that something that you could understand? No, this is one person's experience. You know what I mean? I think that's how you have to look at it. What I'm perhaps arguing is that's everybody's experience who have crossed over the plane into the other side. It's like somebody in hell talking to somebody in heaven and is like, just come on over. Just do it. Just stop being in hell and come to heaven. And you're like, been trying to do that for years. Maybe my whole life. I think also, I mean, there's obviously degrees of addiction and there's actually kind of, you know, psychological dependence on things. I'm not suggesting that like your people who have different kind of personalities may necessarily be able to do something that they are addicted to. But I do think as someone with a kind of fairly obsessive, compulsive, behavioral kind of like tick, maybe that's why it was easier. Because actually, if you decide, like, maybe that is the thing as well. If you are someone who's a bit like that, obsessive.

all compulsive in that way if you possibly just maybe i've just become obsessed with something else like wordle or but you know what i mean you kind of you you mix you mix your compulsions no we're not wordling joe we're not wordling are you telling me that that the coat the covet of our world wordle has made it to the uk i thought that for some reason are you are you going to wordle.co.uk on your internet browser internet with an e at the end no am i no I'm just going to, like, wherever it is. Don't be mean. I don't know what you're talking about. Oh, sorry. No, no, no. We're just sad to see another bright intellectual mind fall prey into the clutches of Wordle. Is it really, though? But are you posting your results on Twitter, though, is the real question. No, that's... Okay, you're better than... Never mind, you're good. I mean, I fucking will if I get a hole in one. I will definitely be sharing that with everyone. When I get good at it, I will be posting. Just watch the space. I mean, I'm pretty good. I tend to get it in three. So I reckon that's not bad. Not bad for an editor. Yeah, yeah. Would you do a daily crossword? Is that something you've done for a long time? No, nothing like that. No, I don't do any of that, and I don't do online scrabble, and I don't like board games. So how did Wordle get its claws into you? Yeah, that's an interesting twist for you, because I'm the same way. I hate games. I like to talk. I don't like games at all. Because it's not really a game. I guess it's like a little kind of brain exercise, isn't it? And it's so competitive. I love watching you justify this to yourself. Joe, it is a game. There's no question it's a game. They have gamified a brain exercise. You're gaming yourself. I guess I like that. You said it's a game where you're playing yourself, number one. And number two, a good job is a hole-in-one. I'm getting some golf similarities here. What is your relationship with the gentleman's game? I have none, but I've always desperately wanted to play because I've always thought I'd be really good. Yeah, I think so. This is a resolution, 2022. We're playing more golf, baby. I like that you just think you would be good at golf. I like that. I've always fancied myself quite good at it, but no idea. A lot of my friends' dads growing up felt the same way. And they weren't.

Do you have a relationship? Do you have a relationship with the gentleman's game? We're more tennis players, the other gentleman's game. The more athletic gentleman's game. I'm not trying to take shots here. I've played golf before, but it doesn't really speak to me quite as much. It takes so long. You have a child. The learning curve is very, very steep. It's a financial investment. You've got to spend a couple grand on some nice clubs and a golf cart and the clothes. The membership. Yeah, the membership. tough to get into. You guys over there, you guys love memberships. You love that shit. Just throw another one on the pile. Who cares? You know what I mean? Maybe. I think the main appeal of golf to a lot of people is the five hours that you're away from other people. Your life partner, perhaps. The ball and chain. The old battle axe. Joe, what is it about your partner that you're trying to escape from? I've never played golf, so clearly I want to spend all the time I can in the world with him. Don't do this. He's not listening to this. But you're up at night in the middle of the evening dreaming to be out on the Lynx, perhaps. I just see someone do a nice swing every so often, and I think, I could do that. I think that's good. I like the idea of being out in the open. Strolling around. I saw a nice swing on YouTube today, and I just thought to myself, damn, that's nice. When you get that perfect connection of the club head on the ball, that ding sound, that's Mozart to me. It's quite satisfying. Tennis is very – I play tennis a lot. I'll tell you a story about tennis, actually. I was playing tennis the day the Twin Towers fell down, and I stopped playing. the game I was playing, which I'd been playing obsessively like five times a week to go and watch the coverage. And I haven't picked up a racket since it stopped me ever playing. Are you saying that 9-11 is your 9-11? Yeah, that's what it sounds like. For tennis, yeah. Crazy. I was on the court. You were in America, were you? I was in Ireland. No, I was in Ireland. I think my husband ran in to get like a dance of water.

came out and went, oh, my God, come and look at the news. This is fucking extraordinary. And you're like, it's Deuce, break point. I think it can wait. And he's like, no, it can't wait. Never again. Never again. We played like five times a week really competitively. And then it was like absolutely not. It just, that was it. It'll never happen again. So you're good at quitting smoking, great at quitting tennis. Maybe we can see a hypnotist to get back into the game. I'm a quitter. Maybe I've just got no stamina. What we've learned from you is you're not a runner. You strike me as a runner. I used to be. I've got a bad knee. She's a swimmer now. Oh, we're falling apart. We're falling apart, Joe. Jesus Christ. Let's get some PTs over there. Joe, let's get in-depth into how you injured your knee and what kind of treatment. we're doing lately you don't want to know honestly i do i i suffer from a knee injury that i'm currently rehabilitating so are you let's say it's top of mind is it right so i have this like super weird knee condition i can't even pronounce it Okay. And it's very, very rare. I'd just like to say, it's a very, very, very unusual case. It's an exclusive. You guys ain't got these. I'm in a really exclusive. As Chris said, you guys love memberships, and this is a very prestigious one. Yeah, this is the fucking club dance. This is her groucho in the 90s. Eat your heart out, Soho House. This is an elite. The specialist had to refer me to. Another specialist because he... Oh, shit. Okay. Flex on us, Joe. Flex on us, Joe. I'm flexing because it's literally the thing I cannot do with my knee. Well done. He basically told me... Thanks. Cheers. It's this thing. You have this thing where the fluid in your knee, instead of creating fluid around the joint, actually creates tiny, tiny seeds of cartilage. So you have these weird tumors of cartilage which grow around your knee, which basically means I can't bend it. So I will be having, I think, an operation to remedy that situation in the next month or so, after which I fully plan to be cross-country running and all that jazz. What's wrong with your knee? I hyperextended it playing tennis, actually, about a year ago and didn't have to get surgery, really didn't want to, so I've been kind of slowly rehabilitating it. And now it's getting to a place where it's almost kind of back to normal. But it took a lot of...

Hard work. Research meaning looking at basketball players on Instagram because Jason's very tall. So he wants to know what they're doing, which is smart. But that's the danger of being tall, right? Hyper extension. That is one danger. And they die. They die early. Oh, yeah. I heard that. That's a more serious danger, I would say. A mortal danger. Also, because our extremities are so long, we get cold. Much easier than shorter folks in the world. How tall are you? I'm six feet nine inches. Let me check centimeters for you. I mean, I don't speak centimeters for height, so that's perfect. Six foot nine. I know exactly what you're talking about. That's fucking huge. 205.74 cm for our international listeners. It's his kind of claim to fame. And I'm personally sick of hearing about it because I'm pretty tall too, but no one really cares about my height. So it's a little, you know, it's a little. To be fair, Chris, it is the only card that I have in my deck. So let me hold on to it for a while. No, I will. No, you have a beautiful head of hair too. That is something that you. Speaking of hair, I was getting my haircut yesterday at the barber and he said, it appears that your hairline is growing in. No, no. Yes. Really? Your hairline's getting better. You're producing loads of estrogen or something. Do you have HGH over there in London? Because that's kind of what I'm on right now. What is that? Human growth hormone. Oh, no. That's why you're hyper-extending your fucking knees. Exactly. I'm not taking HGH, but it is odd for a man of a certain age to begin creating more hair on the head. On other parts of the body, the hair does come in as age persists. That's not only making me visibly upset, but that's also, I didn't know that was, you're a freak. Like, I don't know if that, that might not be good. Extra hair, you're just creating extra hair. Usually it kind of comes in the ear, the nose, maybe the lower back will get a new touch.

Good scalp of it. Nice. Maybe science should be studying me. Yeah, yeah. It's interesting, though, the male pattern baldness, because my grandmother was, like, very, very hard on people who lost their hair, as though it was, like, their fault. You know, she would watch, like, the royal weddings and stuff and be like, I mean, have you seen Prince Edward? He had barely got a hair on his head. She'd get really... kind of aggrieved about it. That is cool as hell. As if it were something that somebody had control over. Yeah, and then she went to Ireland when I lived in Ireland for a bit and all she said the entire time she was there was, did you see him? Incredible head of hair. Incredible head of hair. You've got a hair fetish. I mean, I'd hate to see, I'd hate to hear what she has to say about... I think when you get to a certain age. Yeah. When you get to a certain age and it's like all the guys have got like two strands between them, you start to really appreciate. Grandma's swiping on Raya. She can't find one guy with a head of hair. This is bullshit. She's got to go to Ireland. I'd hate to hear what she has to say about a plumper. Something you can control? She had no issue with any of that. Honestly, it was just a bald spot. Really riled her. I hate that bald motherfucker. That's what she might say. Are the Irish known for their hair? I didn't know that. No, I don't think so. They should be. I mean, I think they should put it on their literature because it's very good. Have you been to Istanbul? Great segue. No. Hairy place? No, no, no, no, no. Both in terms of your safety as well as body hair, yeah. You might think that, Joe, but no, it's actually the number one place for hair transplants in the world. Chris has done research, let's just say that. I have not. I shave my head by choice. Don't do that, Jason. I'm an athlete, Joe, so I kind of need it. Just say he has a few brochures. He tries to stay aerodynamic. I was there. I was in Cairo on holiday, and we just popped over. There's a Prada store in the airport. We were just checking out the sites. As you do. It would be a fool to not get a consultation. Yeah, I mean it's free. The consultation is free. Consultation is free. So basically you're like walking around everywhere, and you see these guys with their families, and they just have like little bloodied.

bloody dots in their head because it's not and they have to wear these like they have to wear these little headbands and the headbands are branded like whatever the doctor they went to you know what I'm saying so it's like doctor whatever and they're just kind of they're just kind of shameless about it because it's like hundreds of them and they do these packages so they're staying at like the four seasons it's like nice and they're I mean you build your vacation around daddy needs more hair but can you imagine getting like that's something that i feel like is personal like i'm not bringing my wife and kid with me to get a hair because you've got to be there for ages so yeah i guess so also it's such a long process right because your face swells like you've got to be transparent and open about it i think you've got to bring everyone along with you because otherwise i agree with job oh i don't think i don't think i don't think you're you're not going to fool anyone that's not what i'm saying what i'm saying is would you take your family yeah that's yeah that's all i mean it's not like you're having like a penis enlargement surgery or something like that like everyone is gonna know when daddy comes back from istanbul like oh this motherfucker has hair now it's you know yeah it's different i would 100 do it myself i think transplant i'm i would sign up Okay. You're familiar with actor Steve Carell. Yeah. Apparently, he went to the best guy. It was 80 grand. $80,000. $80,000 USD to get the best of the best. That doesn't seem very expensive at all. But this is the thing. I agree. If you look at the ratio of actors in Hollywood and the percentage of men who go bald. In Britain alone, I'd say 70% of guys have lost most of their hair. Britain is bald as hell, that's true. And Germany is very, very bad. It's something to do with the Austro-Hasberg Empire, I think. It's the way that we migrated across Europe, and it's a bad gene. Bad gene. It sounds like you're really punishing that gene. Bad gene. Naughty, naughty gene.

see them you can just see like the fear gripping their faces as they kind of hit their mid-20s and then suddenly they're like it's starting to go so there must be tons of these hair transplants happening i mean i think brad bradley cooper famously has had one i wasn't aware of of corrals but but i when you see the side by side you're like damn this is very well done like very very well done and those guys you know the way they work they can go away for a while They're out of the public light for six months, eight months, and they come back, and all of a sudden, they've got a ponytail. And then do you see Jason Alexander, who's on... like from Seinfeld, and he does stuff. Sometimes he'll pop in. Sometimes he wears a toupee. Sometimes he doesn't. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's really inconsistent. So there was like some kind of reunion show, and half of it he was wearing, and he kept coming in with and without hair. I was like, this is wrecking my head, but it was kind of brilliant. I think maybe his agent is like, look, we need some diversity. Like, we need you to do it. Let's try one with hair and one without. Mix it up. Let's try one with hair for the self-tape. Let's do one with hair for safety. Yeah, let's go with hair for safety. Kind of genius. Well, the problem is with your beautiful country is that two of your biggest representatives are, you know, Harry and William, and they both have aged like shit. Am I allowed to say that, or do I get like... I'm saying it. It's okay. You can just nod your head. I did say yes, but I'm just going, hmm, interesting point there, yeah. That's really interesting that you say that, but those guys are like... When you've been in the public limelight for so long and you were, you were like a really cute kid and you were like in your early twenties, you're like very good looking, you know? And then it's like, it didn't take that long. Those guys are, those guys really rapid, rapid. How much of that is nature? How much of that is nurture or just taking a lashing from the sun? No, that was nature, mate. That was, that was nature.

That was like bad genes in the hair department. You know, like they, you know, like people, they're like, oh, men don't have a biological kind of, you know, they don't have a biological clock and blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, why do you think so many guys like get engaged and married at the age of 29, 30? It's because their biological clock is falling down the shower plug. They're like, this is as good as I'm going to get. They are like, I've got to get in. They get married. You see so many guys getting married, little tiny little spot in the back of the head. And you're like, in about a year's time. going to be like nothing left and they're all like rushing down the aisle i think i think it um that's a great theory that's a great theory i've never thought about that before but that that tracks that really does perfect sense let's just check the next like six weddings we go to and just just have a little look at the groom's hair and like just see and who the bachelors are like no i'm never gonna settle down man i can't time it down and they'll be the guys who are growing new hair There's been some growth. All those Turkish bachelors. Yeah. Hey, you guys want to head to Turkey after this? It seems like a pretty cool place to check out. Well, speaking of the Hollywood entertainment industry, I wanted to talk to you about And Just Like That. It's a TV show that Chris is not a massive fan of. He hasn't really seen it. I'm kind of refusing. I'm protesting. I'm kind of refusing to watch. Sex in the City or not? Of course. Sex in the City and Entourage are probably the two biggest shows on this podcast. Did Entourage make it across the pond, by the way, Jo? It did. I never really went the whole way. I think I did a season or two. Do yourself a favor and revisit it. Really? If you want to flirt with toxic masculinity, just a little bit. Just check it out. You can just check it out. One day coming home on the train, I saw a poster. for like Channel 4 or something, which is a UK, you know, broadcast or whatever. And it said, why don't you watch EL right from the beginning? And I was like, fuck yes.

And I did that. Yeah, I did. Damn, that worked on you. It worked. I did the whole lot. Like, probably pandemic-y. I got, like, a really long way. We watched ER. My mom delivered babies for years, and she loved ER because... Like a documentary, isn't it? She was like, it's so accurate. She's like, they really... And obviously, most shows like that are, but I think she was really impressed time after time, like, how real it was. They nailed hashtag hospital life. Exactly. Rather like, and just like that, which I... feel it's such a kind of fair and accurate like reflection of where we're at at the moment don't you okay it's just so so relevant jason's gonna hit the woke button if you keep talking like this oh man is it's special i i couldn't bear it and now i'm kind of loving it it's on tonight for me my life partner said if i finish all my work and chores i can watch it tonight yeah obviously you grew up watching sex in the city right Yes. And those were your girls? No, well, I mean, they were old. I'm not saying that you guys are contemporaries, obviously, but, you know. Well, I'm just thinking, this is a weird thing when they were old. They seemed so much older than I was when I was watching, but I was, like, not that fucking young. What were you doing? So when you were watching Sex and City in its prime, were you, like, going out and drinking and smoking, et cetera? Yeah, I was, like, a young woman. I never had four female friends, so that was always a bummer. I've always slightly struggled on that score. More of a male counterpart? I did have a lot more male friends, yeah. And I'm also a one-on-one kind of person. I find groups kind of... I just don't love them. So that whole gal pal thing was always a bit of an anathema. But I never liked it. I mean, this is the thing. I always thought it was a bit shit. And maybe that is why it's so fucking great. It's because I found them annoying. I found their attitudes all wrong. I didn't like the kind of... You know, I didn't like the sort of sexual dynamics of it. Like, all of it was, like, awful, and yet I carried, I watched it religiously for years, and then I re-watched it. Of course. Then I re-watched it. The only thing I won't do is the films, because the films are heinous. Oh, no, Joe, don't, don't. No, they're heinous. When they go to Dubai. No, they're heinous. You need to give yourself to the films. No.

I would suggest, okay, the next time you're on a transatlantic flight, you have a few hours to kill. Give yourself a treat. I'll be too busy giving myself a treat of Entourage if I get that opportunity, right? Okay. Okay, I will take that. Because you have like half a Xanax, you get a couple of white wines, Entourage comes on, another blanket and maybe a warm cookie in first class. Oh, yeah. Are you familiar with the theme song by LA Legends? Jane's Addiction. The theme song is... iconic in the same way that the sex in the city one is it's something that will stick with you for years to come yeah see no i don't i'm not it's just not there i i understand you're not a perry feral chick i get it like that's that's fine me neither really you know what i mean it's fine it's it's totally it's totally fine but yeah i mean obviously the show the original sex in the city and and just like that awful Can't stop watching it because it's just, you know, you know that every five minutes you're going to overturn a new stone. It's not even a hate watch. It's not a hate watch. It transcends a hate watch. Yeah, it's just, yeah. Yeah, it's different. Because a good part of it is you're watching it just because you want to know what's happening. Like, you know that the storyline is going to get worse. You know the plot is going to get more useless. You know, all the characters are not going to develop. I don't know, whatever the opposite of develop is. And then they've segued in all this really peculiar, kind of timely, I don't know, whatever it is. But I think that's an accurate, depending on if you look at it with more interesting glasses, not rose-colored perhaps, but something colored glasses, Cosmo colored glasses. It is so awful, and you feel like they're missing the mark culturally in every way. But also... And you can kind of chalk that up to the same writers who are so out of touch are attempting to take their vision of what modern culture is, and it's so behind. It's just like Boomer, Facebook, 52-year-old writers being like, this is what a podcast is. This is what a stand-up comedian is. This is what lesbians are doing now. And it's so wrong, but also the demographic has aged terribly with the writers.

So it's sort of right for the original demographic, if that makes sense? Well, I would be kind of interested to know what someone who was precisely at that age is now, like where they're at. Yeah, yeah. But I watched the first episode with my daughter, who I don't think has ever watched Sex and the City. But she was kind of intrigued or whatever. How old is she? How old is she? She's 16. She was like, why not? And then she just couldn't bear, like, any mention of, like, the pandemic. Like, all of the stuff that just seemed, like, shoehorned in there. She was, like, visibly kind of cringing. She's like, Mom, let's put on Euphoria, you loser. I don't want to watch this. Yeah, well, we watched that straight after. You watch Euphoria with your daughter? Yeah. said that the other day like that was maybe a bit inappropriate look i know you're i know you're a cool mom but damn you gotta draw the line somewhere i mean you guys are a little bit more laxed over there with you know sexual scenes in television and film you know you can say the s-h-i-t word on tv so it's a little different over there but you know there's a lot of there's a lot of there's a lot of cock all you can handle all you can handle i'm up to my ears in this stuff you haven't watched it No, because it's not for me. I like to learn about the children. I find it illuminating. These are things that you can say as a woman, and if I said that as a man, I would be in handcuffs. Yeah, and also, you have a daughter. It's your job to keep up. I like to know what the kids are doing, so I watched this show, Euphoria, so I could see a 17-year-old girl having sex. Yeah, it's on HBO. I pay for it. What is your daughter into? Like, what is her, you know what I mean? Is she into, like, music? Is she an actor? Archery. Music and being a kind of London teenager, which I think they get very kind of geographically associated. Like, they get very involved with their geography, you know? Okay. Are you from the ends, Jo? Well, the ends is anybody's ends, right?

Mate, you ain't really from the fucking N's. No, it's like you're in your N's. Everyone has their own N's, right? Great point. I'm talking about the N's. We are in NW6, so technically we are. Damn. That's chess, Jason. She just stunned your ass, dumbass. Carry on, m'lady. Carry on. I'm in an-it. I'm in an-in. Well, I know this. I actually was in London pretty recently. It's like my favorite city outside of New York. And I find the vibe of – I have a group of friends that were raised in the city. Oh, right. And it's a very – It's a point of pride in the way that in... It is in New York, right? The same thing. It is. It's a city kid in New York, but like a city kid in New York also means that you went to rehab at 16. You know what I mean? Yeah, true. There's a little bit of that as well. And you're too smart. You're like too smart for your own good. Yeah, like weird child adult kind of people. Yes, and I think that... But I think that's cool, obviously. But I think that there's... I feel like specifically there, it's like a real divide. Like it's like... Oh, yeah. There's a real point of pride. It's a real point of pride. Yeah, it's right. I mean, I kind of grew up in London. I moved around a bit, but like, yeah, it's very, yeah, you, I mean, it's kind of inevitable, I guess. I thought you lived in, in somewhere, somewhere else. I thought you lived in like the country. No, I was in like the Middle East for a bit. I was in Ireland for a bit. That's the country to me. I kind of grew up in London, though. My childhood, anyway. Middle East. When did you work in oil, Joe? I didn't know you kind of... Yeah, exactly. I was part of the shell. No, I was in Dubai when I was like a... Teenager? I was in Dubai. Your family in the arms dealings or what's going on? This is why you don't want to watch Sex and the City 2. Yeah, exactly. Too many bad memories. Talk to your therapist about that. I think that's a very strange place to be. So you were in Dubai early days. Yeah, but they all thought even then that was like it was past its whatever. You know what I mean? It's one of those places where you're always there 20 years after. It was kind of really interesting. But yeah, it was like...

a little kind of patch on what it is now i was back there like in december for the first time in absolutely years and it was just like oh did you go on that did you go on that influencer trip no i wasn't on that trip i was on another trip to do what was i there for oh we were launching something so it's like a work thing but i was there for like 10 minutes but i didn't go to yeah doha the influencer trip to doha the doha influencer trip took over the feed i'm not familiar with that Could you explain what that is, guys, for our listeners who might not know? It was Doha Fashion Week, right, Jo? Yeah, and there were a few other things to do with it as well. There was a fashion award that was given out, and then there was a couple of exhibitions. It all feels like money laundering, and they just pay people to go is kind of the vibe. You know what I mean? There was a bit of pushback, right? Yeah, there was. Yeah, especially in America. Like, I don't want to go to Dubai? No, like, you shouldn't be doing this. Oh, yeah. They should. And it was also, that was Doha. So it was because of Qatar and the Olympics and all that kind of carry on. But Olympics or World Cup? World Cup, right? but um world cup it was um yeah no i mean she was like kind of it's it's kind of weird it's like that is a place that just thinks it's the center of the universe and then you kind of leave it and you realize no one's really no one really talks about it that much and then you go back there and it's like oh my god it gives me it gives me a i've never been but it gives me from afar a vegas vibe oh vegas oh my god 100 we're like inside and they're pumping in fragrance and like The temperature is a certain, you know, it's just like everything's got to be this way. Yeah. And you're like sitting next to the Eiffel Tower and an ice rink and eating like five star. And it's like, oh, because we can. And you're like, but is this really nice? It shouldn't be happening. Much like L.A. Fashion Week.

It just shouldn't be happening. I'll stop you there because Miami Swim Week is one of my favorites. Of course. So I'm not going to let you slander Miami Swim Week. I hope Joe's been to that before. That's where the real deals are done. I have not. You've got to get a little trashier job. You know what I mean? Your shit's a little too high end. They're not calling you to go there. Yeah, the pink papers are keeping you held above the sludge that we're swimming in. Yeah, you need to come down to the slums with us. swim is it swimwear yeah but it's like i'm not exaggerating it's it's like the the the seats are will be like in the in the in a pool like you're sitting you're sitting in the front row and your feet are in water and the models are in bathing suits walking in water i'm not exaggerating that sounds quite cool yeah that's what i'm saying that's what i'm saying it's a lot more fun it's like it's a celebration of tits for just one week parading as like a fashion event but it's like where miss world went to die exactly we finally found where it was i was looking for for the last five years and it was in miami the whole time hiding out i've been trying to find an excuse to get down there during that week haven't found one yet Nobody wants me to DJ their after parties or anything like that. That's too bad. That's too bad. Have you been traveling at all? Barely, a little bit, a little bit. Not very much. I'm going to start doing some more in the next month or so. I think the shows are starting again, so there'll be a bit. I have a lot of theories on the shows, because people are like, oh, they're going to go away. We can just do it digitally. And I'm like, first of all, you can't. And second of all, I think the people that are in power in making those decisions, are people that really want them to happen. For now. I mean, 100%. No, they definitely, definitely are. Like all the big brands were back as soon as they possibly could. And this kind of digital experience, whatever that we kind of did for a couple of seasons was fine. But I mean, it just didn't get the traction. Like they just didn't get enough clicks and all that stuff. So I think.

They love the shows. And also because of the way things have moved now, like the market's changed and influencers have become so important. They need the influencers to go and be in the front row and then do their coverage and put it on their TikTok. And you can't really generate a TikTok moment out of a digital. And I've seen them try. I've seen them try and it does not land. It does not land. I mean, they can unbox their tickets, I guess, for as long as, but I mean, is unboxing going to carry on for like ever and ever? I hope not. It's the worst. I started doing screen recordings of me unboxing my email invitations to all the fashion shows. Yeah? All the paperless post clicks. People left it. Yeah, it didn't really get traction, but he had his shirt on. Actually, Joe, didn't you tweet something about or retweet something about fashion invitations, like the wastefulness of the physical? Oh, my God. You'll get like this DHL box, which is like this. Yeah, but Joe, don't be a hater. It's cool. It's not cool if you've got to put it in your recycling bin and your recycling bin is spewing cardboard. Unless it's like a. beautiful piece of art invitation you're gonna throw it away i don't care if it has your name handwritten in cursive of course of course it has to be like so amazingly perfect that you might like put it in a frame and put it in your guest bathroom otherwise it's all just being thrown away instantly no no no but the point the reason those things are so over the top is for the photo that's like joe's saying it's like all for the photo and then you got to throw it away but what happened but they've been like that For decades before social media, though. So why were they doing it before? Because that was the only way they could communicate that. But I think it's a dying art. Yeah, for sure. I mean, there's still people wedded to it, though, because everything could be done online. And there's no need to ever send a paper invite to anything ever. But people just can't help themselves. And actually, there was one invite I got last season, which was the size of a table. And it had just so much paper.

poster size, literally a roll of wallpaper. Don't come for Burberry. Don't come for Burberry like this. What did Jonathan Anderson do to you? Do you guys have beef? I was like, this is just silly. You can use that paper for wrapping paper. I have a whole closet full of Burberry wrap. That's good. That's a great idea. Jason delivers all his presents in Novichek. It really warms my heart. And then when I give somebody a present, they're like, ooh. And then I'm like, it's not Burberry. I did that. I did that with ribbons. It's like Chanel. I was like, no. It's an Amazon gift card you can use to buy some Chanel flats or at least one Chanel flat. I think the invitations are – I guess I'm – and maybe you, Joe, I would imagine have some sort of love for print in general, obviously, because you do it for a living and you've done it for a long time. And I think the invitations to me feel like a little bit of extension of that, even though it's different. It feels the same way. sure we could do it differently but like it's pretty nice to do it this way it's kind of how it feels to me i think yeah it's just like a part of that treaty experience of being at the show is that you're again part of a club and part of a special kind of group of people and i personally have never i've never been one of those people that keeps in there because like what the fuck are you supposed to do with them all paper an entire floor but people do i mean i've seen you know i've seen lovely collections from people who've kept them for decades We're talking about Brian Boy? Yeah, Brian Boy. Brian Boy's got every invitation he's ever gotten. Yeah, he's never... No. Well, see, they're probably all worth a fortune as well if I had any sort of instinct for doing anything. I wonder if you could sell them as a lot on eBay, what you would get. I think you could. I think you could sell John Galliano invites to early Dior shows or Marc Jacobs stuff. I think you could. If you have a complete set. You can get 75 quid for that. Yeah, no problem. No problem. If you find the right buyer. 100 quid. on grail i'm taking you out tonight joe i wanted to talk to you about your twitter bio okay so there's there's a lot of abbreviations going on there's hashtags in different places okay so i'm just gonna read through it so usually people who have a like a job or career in your position it'll be like i'm a editor at large at this place or i'm the yeah creative director of this place whatever and you just say

F-T-H-T-S-I. So we know what that means, financial times, how to spend it. But for the average Joe, pardon the pun, might be like, what the fuck is this? Is this like a model number of a calculator? What's going on here? And FYI, this is a service we usually charge for, but we're doing this consulting for free because we like you. This is a top-down valuation. spell it out a bit more clearly I think it would no hey we don't need it but there are some Luddites out there I'm very curious as to what I was thinking with editor with a hashtag after the word editor yeah so then it says so after it says F-T-H-T-S-A it says editor hashtag period it's a women's thing actually uh so don't don't bring up gender again joe what i'm thinking i'm literally editing it while i'm talking to you i'm like what we have the screenshots sis don't do that we have the screenshots i don't want to be a prick we got the receipts i don't want to be a prickly pear but this is have you thought about dyslexia as something that is uh afflicting you I don't know what happened. I think it's because it was a point where I had like three titles, and then I put them all down, and then I went, oh, my God, these just suck. Way to weave in a humble brag there while we're at it. Yeah, wow, Joe. Textbook dyslexia. Stunt on us. Narcissistic dyslexia. Okay, Joe, the back nine, to use a golf term, frustrated DCI. And I looked up what DCI means, and I found it was the Drum Corps International, and I don't think that you're much of a drummer. Could you explain what a DCI is? It's Detective Inspector, Detective Crime Inspector. Oh, so you moonlight as a Law & Order-style crime fighter gumshoe? Frustrated Detective Crime Investigator? Crime Investigator. Dyslexia. What is it? It's like so long since I wrote this.

We're doing an audit live. It's Detective Chief Inspector. Sorry, finally. Detective Chief Inspector. It's the same title that Detective Jane Tennyson has in the crime hit. which I don't know whether you'll have seen it, Prime Suspect. BBC production. Very, very popular in there. She's basically the sort of progenitor of every other murder detective that's ever been invented for television. She was the best. But more recently, maybe Mare of Easttown. Yeah, I didn't catch that. I didn't catch that, but I've heard it's good. Okay, so you're saying that you relate to this type of person or that you are actually a member of Scotland Yard yourself when you do Moonlight? I wish. No, I'm not. Although I did go and interview a lot of murder detectives once to find out what they really did for a living and whether it compared to the sort of dramatizations of their lives. Oh, that's cool. And they did tell me there was a fast track. There was a fast track option that if I were interested, it would take me about two years. But I didn't take it up at the time. That seems fast. Two years? It was like a two-year fast track. Well, I mean, if you look at Joe's LinkedIn, you'll be like, she can knock this out in about a year and a half. I'm on it. Her credentials? I'm on it, guys. Yeah, I've got a really powerful hunch. So you've always had a love for the criminal arts? Is that it? Is this a hobby or a passion that's going to maybe go a little out of control? You're not able to control and you might kind of cross the line. I don't think I'll be crossing. I mean, if you mean cross the line, I just become one of those. I could totally see myself. Evidence tampering. No, I can totally see. I can see myself becoming one of those like don't fuck with cats kind of internet sleuths. I can totally see me doing that. So for our listeners at home, this is an audio podcast, but on the Zoom behind you, there's a big cork board and there's a bunch of photos of people and then there's string attached to all of them. Just a few projects. So it looks like you're in the middle of a crime right now. Well, a couple of things. It's like I like to keep a couple of projects on the go at any one time, you know?

I've just had a big case in Ireland, so I've just been working on that night and day. But yeah, in the meantime, I just do a luxury consumer magazine. Just to kill some time. One for you, one for them, as they say. Yeah, exactly. Okay, this is interesting. Well, I'm sorry to shine a light onto your Twitter bio, but much like your upcoming knee surgery, we have to break... before we can repair it. You know what I mean? Amazing. That's true. And I have faith in you to kind of make the edits. You do do that for a living, so I think you know. I think you're usually the one giving them out. You know, I know that. Your red pen stays behind the ear, but in this case, we're kind of flipping the script a little bit. As an editor yourself, how do you feel being edited by strangers? Oh, like by you guys? Is it a hat that you put on that feels... A little too comfortable? I think everyone needs editing, don't you? That's my motto. Everyone needs an editor. Of course. I agree. But who edits the editor is the question, other than the big man upstairs. I think the editor is like, I think the less well you know the person you're editing, the better it is, even though it's painful. But you need to be. Who edits you guys? Me. Oh, so your God. Okay. Yeah, he is God. Don't do that. Don't gas him up. Thank you, Joe. He's going to pull that soundbite. He's going to pull that soundbite for his book jacket cover. Your God, Joe Ellison. Yeah, thanks. Oh. I knew he was tall. More of this. Can I get you a drink while we're at it? Oh. Gin and soda for you? Is that fun? All right, Joe. Well, we appreciate you taking the time to chat with us. We hope you had fun podcasting. We really do. It was great. Thank you. I hope you got a minute of usable content. Oh, this is all usable, baby. This is all usable. We're going to cut out some of your racist stuff, but I want to keep your career healthy. You seem to be doing well, so we're going to let it slide.

I'm a subscriber of How to Spend It. I love it. I think it's the best luxury supplement in the market. So I just needed to tell you that, that it's the best. I got a copy of the pinky right here, baby. We were featured in the paper like a month ago or something. Did you know that, Jo? No, I did not. A writer named Rachel Conley wrote a piece about... podcast that stemmed from friendships, and we were kind of the crux of the story. Nice. I'll pull it up for you, John. You can check us out in the New York Times, too. I'll send you the link. Actually, if you need Chris's login for FT.com. Yeah. My husband would love it, actually. You know, because you can't, I can't get, he can't get onto the FD with my login because they're so tight. I don't know. Really? He's used up all his free articles and the incognito doesn't work. I don't know. Well, now I know what to get the guy for Christmas this year. Oh, man. No, Joe, honestly, thank you. Keep doing what you're doing. It was a pleasure. Thank you. And we'll see you soon. Later. Take care. Thanks a million. Toodaloo. It's been a piece of piss. This is a preference for the habitual voyeur of what is known as A morning suit can be avoided