045. - Fadia Kader

All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian. And they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world. And they do it three times a week. Jason, does that sound familiar to you? We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place. All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcast. or watch on YouTube. Want to make a podcast? Spotify's got a platform that lets you make one super easily, then distribute it everywhere, and even earn money. We like that. All in one place for totally free. It's called Spotify for Podcasters. And here's how it works. Spotify for podcasters lets you record and edit podcasts right from your cellular telephone or your computer. So no matter what your setup is like, you can start creating today. Then you can distribute your podcast to Spotify and everywhere else, those other places that podcasts are heard. Video podcasts are also available on Spotify. And when you want to take conversations with your fans to the next level, Q&As and polls are the best way to get them talking. With Spotify for podcasters, you can earn money in a variety of ways, including ads and... and podcast subscriptions. And best of all, it's totally free. Zero catch. We've been using it ever since we started How Long Gone. And ever since I discovered Spotify for Podcasters, I feel like having the option of turning off the Q&As and the polls on the user dashboard has really helped boost my creativity and take it to another level. I highly recommend giving it a try. Download the Spotify for Podcasters app or go to www.spotify.com slash podcasters to get started.

Hello. What's up, TJ? Hey, bro. Doing pretty well. It sounds eerily quiet at the homestead. I don't mean to assume, but is construction done or close? Construction not done. It is close. We're in the homestretch. They are not working today. They're cutting. cutting a bunch of shit at their at the lab so oh they're i see they're back in the stew they're back in the stew doing some doing some final touches on they have to like cut a bunch of shit um and then tomorrow it's all going in i think it should be done wow just in time for big cv's arrival we can do like we can do a little crib style home tour for the fans yeah uh as soon as you quarantine for two weeks we'll set that up Okay, yeah, good luck with that. But yeah, it is quiet today. My girlfriend's not even here. Damn, TJ Home Alone, Risky Business Boys. I know, and I could be spending this time doing all kinds of risky business, but instead I'm podcasting with you. Well, look, man, jerking off again is not going to get to this bag any faster. Podcasting, on the other hand, will absolutely get us to the bag. It's a very good point. It's a very good point. I'm just still dying over your Laird Hamilton superfood creamer has got me on geek text message that you sent me. And I mean, we've talked about this before, but I didn't. So have you looked into Laird, the famous surfer? Does he have an entire product line? Yes, he does. It almost sounds like you've never even listened to Joe Rogan before. But yeah, he does have a full line of products. Wow. This looks pretty good. I mean, it has this thing called Aquaman, which is apparently a super nutritious...

blend of of minerals and nutrients that are derived from a certain type of red sea kelp um and that they they've just put a bunch of that into into like a non-dairy coffee creamer that's coconut base the prices are looking dirt cheap yes it's nine nine nine 99 at whole foods pretty cheap I don't want this to sound like an ad because this is not an ad. No, I just think it's funny. I just think that it's great when people branch out into consumer goods. I just think that's like the final frontier of fame at any level is being like, you know what? I'm going to slap my name on a product people will use at home. It kind of makes sense, but it kind of doesn't, I guess, for him because he's an athlete. I guess it makes sense. I mean, what celebrity products have actually become successful or even just good? Like Soulja Boy has the Soulja Watch, and that was not good. What about the Raycon headphones? Well, who does Raycon headphones? Ray J, bitch! Ray J has a huge, huge offering of products. From scooters to fake AirPods. It's all popping. When you say it's all popping, does that mean that it is a proven quality product that people believe in and purchase on a normal basis? Or is like a company that Ray J started maybe more so known as a bit of a novelty perhaps? When I say popping, I mean making shitty products and probably not selling them. Okay. But it's funny, so therefore it's popping. It is funny. I'm trying to find an example of an actual real success of celebrity endorsement. Ja Rule has not had a good one. Well, I'm sure there's like, I'm sure.

I'm sure there are. I guess it's going to be Fenty and it's going to be – Martha Stewart too. You know what I mean? Or like whatever. George Foreman, the Foreman Grill. I mean that – Millions. Millions. Like shit like that. Stuff maybe a little before our time. But now it's easy to sell direct to consumers. So we might not even know about some of the stuff if we don't follow them on IG. DTC, baby. It's big. Yeah, my friend. A friend of mine got the Soldier Watch and they just never sent it to him. It was just a picture of an Apple Watch that they photoshopped Soldier Boy's logo into. No, no, no. Yeah, it's like $19. Oh, okay. And they sent it to your house. Who cares? But it's just a full, just full thievery. Just, we thank you for buying this Soldier Watch and that's it. They never send you a product. It's just like a straight up scam. So, all right. I think this is a good time for us to announce the How Long Gone Watch. It's $15.99 and coming out next week. Pre-orders are available now. Howlonggone.com slash watch. Apple Watch is out, bro. Yeah, that shit's for losers, dude. You need to get the How Long Gone Watch. It's just generally cooler, but does the same stuff. It's generally cooler. Other big news today. The Dixie Chicks just changed their name to... No way. the chicks. Really? Yes. Yes. And that sounds like the name of a band in like a, like a Lindsay Lohan Disney movie. I, I agree. I mean, I think the, the, the, uh, I mean, I guess changing the name makes sense obviously because it's offensive or, or, you know, it's, uh, It's not. What exactly, as a Southern person, like I know the word Dixie, but what exactly is like the animal behind it? It's just racist shit. You know what I'm saying? Just some like Confederate flag, like we're protecting our history. And unfortunately, the history they're talking about is owning slaves. So it's a little bit of an insane thing to die on. Again, I'm not the most well-versed in this, but that's, I think.

They love these symbols of confederacy, but the confederacy was awful. So while you would want those symbols or these statues of these people that held up these awful things, why you would want that still is a little beyond me. I don't think the Dixie Chicks named themselves because they were representing for that. I think it was probably just 30 years ago. Dixie is just a nickname for any of the southern states at all. Yeah, yeah. But also, any of those southern states also happen to be composed of all Confederate states. That's what I'm saying. It's like a little bit like, yeah, just southern stuff. I mean, you know, there's a lot of good stuff in the south. But yeah, I mean... Just calling your name The Chicks, though, is just not going to work out. The Chicks does not seem very in line with where we are in 2020. But also, I guess, a full name change would have been really crazy for a band of that size, too, that's been around for so long. That's true. But then on the other side of the coin, it's like you're so big, it doesn't fucking matter. Just change the name, and you have the ability for... your label, all the digital streaming services, so you hit a button and just change it all. You know what I mean? It's a very easy thing to communicate at this stage, but I'm just surprised at the news. I mean, somebody has to do a better job at figuring out how to rename these things because you can't just call your band The Chicks. Well, I mean, Lady Antebellum going to Lady A doesn't... Well, I'm saying I remember a day, you know, two weeks ago when they announced that they're changing their name to Lady A. And everyone was like, oh, that's funny. And now Dixie Chicks changing the name to The Chicks makes Lady A look like an actual good idea and good job. I believe you're right. I haven't, you know, this name change was very recent. And I don't know. I haven't really clocked the reviews from the public at large. But I'm sure.

it will be relatively positive. I'm sure plenty of people are not rushing to speak about their thoughts on the Dixie Chicks changing their name in the year 2020. But that's why you come to How Long Gone, because we give you these extremely important takes first. And I think that the Dixie Chicks changing their name is... Is exactly why you listen to this podcast. Yes, yes. Your mom and my mom are like, finally some fucking news I can sink my teeth into. Yeah, this is finally some information for me. You guys need to stop talking about Lil Uzi or whatever his name is and talking about some real shit. What is Chrome Hearts, Christopher? I... I think we're going to see a lot of this, and mostly in the country genre, because they're the ones that probably have the most problematic names historically. But, I mean, Ginny Slate is no longer going to voice that character. Kristen Bell is no longer going to voice that mixed-race character. So little things like this are going to happen in enough of a wave where it is a big thing. Yeah, I agree. I didn't know that Kristen Bell was doing any of that. I mean, who keeps up with Kristen Bell news? But I did watch Big Mouth and I thought it was funny. And I did know that Jenny Slate did the voice of that character who was a black girl. And I thought she did a good job at it. And I really just didn't even think. I mean, I probably was like, huh, interesting. I think this is a black girl and Jenny Slate's doing the voice. But, you know, it didn't really occur to me to be a major offense. I guess it didn't really occur to a lot of people because it just happened. And now that I look at it and I, you know, through a more fresh set of eyes, I'm like, holy shit. Yeah, that's just bad. I mean, it just seems like a, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think adults watching cartoons is also bad, but this is a bigger issue. And I do, but it is strange, though, that that's the impulse.

Which I think is obviously the issue at hand in a lot of ways. I'm sure Jenny Slate's famous and that's easy to do. It's the path of least resistance. I don't think anyone was ever really going to come for Jenny Slate in some type of witch hunt. scenario asking her for her resignation from show business. But, you know, she's the type of person that would want to, that would get a little scared and want to get out ahead of something, you know, like apologizing for a thing that, you know, you see celebrity apologies of stuff that you didn't even know was happening or going on because they're just paranoid that they don't want to get taken down. So they're getting, getting out ahead of it, which I guess is proactive. But sometimes it's almost a little like, I don't know. It's definitely an admission of guilt energy that is odd to me a little bit. Yeah, I mean, I think that it is, you know, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. It's such a strange thing because we're literally talking about the voice of a cartoon. But that is like. But that is more meaningful than you think about when you think about the implications and what all of that means and the patterns of behavior that go into that kind of stuff. So it's like you have to dig a little deeper to understand why that's a bigger problem than it may seem on the surface is what I'm trying to say. Yeah. For something like a show like Big Mouth where it is such a progressive type of program where they're educating young people about – sex in a new entertaining way that is done intelligently with humor and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, I think that's really important and it's really progressive. And, you know, the casting behind that also has to, you know, keep up to those progressive standards. Well, I think it's just a, you know, another blind spot, you know, that, that will, you know, I think Hollywood's on high alert and, and these kinds of things will, will keep going. You know what I mean? Yeah.

Well, I've been watching a lot of Curb Your Enthusiasm, old reruns lately, and my prediction, my unfortunate prediction of calling that Larry David will be canceled one day in real life just keeps getting stronger and stronger. As I'm watching these old episodes, there's just a lot of stuff that was made less than five years ago that is... That would be front page headlines of like, look at this shit, you know, in terms of racism, in terms of, you know, sexual abuse and male chauvinism and all that stuff. Oh, I'm sure. I mean, yeah, I haven't. I mean, I watched all that stuff when it came out, but I've definitely not revisited. It ages. It does not age well, in my opinion. Interesting. I'm not surprised. At the time, I was laughing so much. That's the problem. It's so funny and it's also so offensive. Five or ten years ago, everyone was like, it's fine in the name of comedy, blah, blah, blah. We don't actually hate people with disabilities or things like that. The name of comedy is going to be a... sliding scale term i think uh what what you're able to do in the name of comedy is is going to be uh changing rapidly um but we do have a guest today um uh my old friend uh fadia cater who um i actually know from years and years ago of like atlanta nightlife um she is now the the the uh strategic partnerships lead of music at instagram which is like a pretty big job um But she's also just lived a really interesting life. She moved here from Jordan. She lived in Nashville. She lived in Atlanta. She now lives in L.A. So I feel like she's probably got a pretty interesting perspective on things, like all things from the news to entertainment, et cetera. So I will bang her line now. Please do. Oh, this is huge for me personally. This episode of How I'm Gone is brought to you by TaskRabbit. Oh, baby, let me tell you something. This is not a joke. I use TaskRabbit a lot.

Because I can't do anything. You need some art hung? TaskRabbit. You need a fucking something put together? A cabinet? Got to reach that cheese grater on the top shelf? TaskRabbit. Anything you need, TaskRabbit can take care of it for you. And I mean, it... How it works, TaskRabbit connects you with skilled taskers in your area. They can help you move. They can assemble furniture, repairs, yard work, mounting, and more. You can search for a tasker based on cost, skill set, availability, and past client reviews so you know exactly who's showing up and can have confidence that they know what they're doing because taskers have assembled over 3.4 million pieces of furniture, completed 700,000 home repairs. handled 1.5 million moves, and the numbers are just going up, Jason. Yeah, throw a little money at the problem. It's not so expensive. And that job that you really don't want to do is something that another person out in the world is very good at doing and would gladly do it in exchange for a little bit of money. So when life happens, your to-do list grows. Get ahead of it now and get $15 off your first task at TaskRabbit.com or grab the TaskRabbit app using promo code how long taskers book up faster, especially for same day tasks. So book trusted home help today. That is $15 off your first task using promo code how long with the TaskRabbit app or at TaskRabbit.com. All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Quince. Jason, the temps are warming up. It's getting hot out there. Summer always changes how I get dressed. I need pieces that feel lighter, more breathable, and they're just easy, but still put together. I don't look like a slob. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high-quality essentials that feel and look amazing. Breathable linen and soft organic cottons. Well-made basics, but without the luxury markups. That rare balance where everything feels elevated. but still effortless. Yeah, Chris, linen season is here. I wore a linen blazer to dinner a few nights ago in the warm California sun. But you know, you got that Italy trip coming up this summer and quality European linen pants and shirts.

Upgrade that look starting at just $34. You know, if you get a nice linen suit, a little t-shirt underneath it, some chill shoes, you're looking good, but you're staying cool. The inside of your special areas are nice and dry as you turn up with your besties. So elevate that summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com slash how long for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns, even on a nice holiday now available in Canada. That is Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash how long. That'll get you free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince punto com slash how long. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Squarespace. Obviously, Jason, you and I spend a lot of time on the World Wide Web, sort of our peers, our listeners, our friends, our colleagues, maybe even your parents if they're freaky. And if you're doing anything in the world. writing, taking pictures. I do topless boxing. You need a website. Exactly. A website that works, that does what it's supposed to do, that allows you to be creative, but also business minded. Jason, there's one place to go for that. Squarespace. Yeah, Chris, I'm over here. I'm modifying calculators and putting Claude inside of them so you could cheat at school. And I just want a place where I could, you know. have everything all in one place. I can have the SEO tools so those future graduates can find me. And, you know, I'm able to accept quote unquote donations for my services that might be gray area. You know what I mean? And then email campaigns. Hey, I got a new, you know, 2.3 version upgrade. Boom, boom, boom. Get the analytics going. Raise some money. Show your investor all of your cool analytics of what's going on. They're going to want to get in early, and we can use Blueprint AI to make your website look as professional as your competition, if not more. So head to squarespace.com slash howlong for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use offer code howlong to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain. All right, there we are. Fadi, are you here? Yes, I'm here. All right, what's up? How are you? I'm good. How are you guys?

Yeah, you know, another day in paradise, as I like to say. Just jazzed. Just jazzed, yeah. I'm actually in Atlanta. I've been here for a couple weeks just to kind of see my parents and hang out. But I am departing soon, which I think I've hit my max after a couple weeks. Your threshold is, what, three weeks in Atlanta? I would say less, honestly, but because of a pandemic, I feel like I've been able to extend it. Yeah. It's just changed my attitude. Have you been in L.A. the whole time? I've been in L.A., so we bought a house two weeks prior to COVID. Who is we, exactly? Oh, my husband and I. Okay. Congratulations. And the dogs and the cat. Well, thank you. It's great. But, you know, like a blessing for sure. Had I known this would have happened, I'd be sitting in Hawaii for the last three months. There we go. I like the attitude. I mean, was moving a total nightmare? Was it like fine? Oh, no, no, no. We moved in two weeks prior to COVID. I thought you were saying you bought it too. I was like, oh shit, okay. It's going to be a whole thing. So now you're already sick of your brand new house is what you're saying. See, you're not going to make me out to be ungrateful around you. What neighborhood are you in, if you don't mind me asking? We're in the Crenshaw, like this weird line between Crenshaw and West Adams area. Okay, yeah. Yeah. I know the area. Where did you move? What neighborhood did you move from? Mid-city, like not even two miles south. We really wanted to stay in like the mid-city area, but it's so expensive now. We definitely got priced out from even like the two years that we moved here and we're contemplating buying there. But we love this neighborhood. This was like definitely number one. That's great. I love to hear it. And I just want to talk about the biggest flex I've seen in a while, and that's you having a 212 cell phone number.

Oh boy. I just, you know, I've, this is something that I am deeply jealous of, but also I'm always interested to hear the origin story. So if you could just walk us through, that would be excellent. Definitely. So when I grew up. Two on two in this economy. Okay. It's honestly insane. Listen, either when I call people think I'm a check or a bill collector. It can go either way. That's true though. That's true. That's totally true. It can definitely go either way. The way it happened was, you know, this is a life hack. But back in the day when I lived in Atlanta, I really was trying to get out of Atlanta and move to New York. And I was applying for all these jobs. And it was back when I had the AirTran X Fair. Do you guys remember that? Oh, my God. We're going all the way back. I have no clue what you're talking about. Jason's from California. So you can explain. Let me break it down. Yeah, AirTran. Well, no, AirTran was just like a budget airline that flew to New York. I mean, I took it to fly to New York. I think it didn't go to LA, right? Or did it? No, I don't think so. So it's like the megabus of the sky? Kinda. Yeah, yeah. I mean, but what was the pass called? X-Fair. Okay, so explain that because I don't really. Yeah, so the X-Fair was you could buy a ticket one way for $45 standby. From what I recall, damn, I'm aging myself, up until you're 23 years old. The whole point is to get college students back and forth from home or college towns or wherever. So there's a child trafficking scheme. Okay, go ahead. Pretty much. Okay, thank you. I assume Russell Simmons was behind this. That sounds like a rush card of the sky. Oh, my gosh. The rush card of the sky. Continue. The jokes write themselves. But, yeah, so I was trying to get a job. Everywhere I called, they're like, oh, your resume is so great. And where do you live? Oh, I see an Atlanta number. And I'm like, yeah, I live in Georgia. And they're like, yeah, sorry. Call us when you move to New York. So I started. I called.

what was it power tell at the time it wasn't even t-mobile yet i think yeah voice stream or power tell you know they've gone through so many changes and i was like can i get a 212 number i need a new york number and they're like great we have a 212 number available i was like cool i don't even know what it is but fine give me a new york number so i put my new york number on the resume changed my address to my home girl's house and when i would get interviews in new york i take the x-fair all the way to new york to interview to try to get a job damn this is see this is some shit young people need to hear like this is what it used to require you know what i mean there's no teleworking there's no fucking zoom like that that's that's really getting it what job did you get what was your first job in new york my first job was working for this publicist her name is marvette britto she had a publicity and like events agency and management agency was it music related or was it like Everything. It was everything related. I mean, she represented everyone from Mariah Carey to what's that lady's name? Kim, who played Samantha on Sex and the City. Kim Cattrall, this is a very pro-Sexas City podcast. We're not going to stand for that disrespect. So far, you have two legends on the roster, Mariah and Cattrall. This is a Cougars-only agency so far. But wait, maybe you guys will remember. Who's a basketball player that used to make budget basketball shoes for the kids? Do you know what I'm talking about? You narrowed it down to about 30. No, Stefan Mulberry? Mulberry? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that was him. She used to represent him, I think. But I only lasted like three months at that job. Versatile. Yeah, that's an incredible roster. So you lasted three months there, but you were in New York, so you were like off to the races. Well, no, I was in New York, but it was at the time when I had also started a party called Broken Bougie in Atlanta, like about a year prior. Yes, Jason.

Jason, I forgot to explain to you that she's also a nightlife legend, just like you. Unfortunately, not part of the EDM community, but still a nightlife legend. Okay, that's cool. That's cool. I mean, if these were different times, I would be toasting you from your section to mine. With some type of Armandale vodka, perhaps. Yeah, you know, I was one of the few promoters that actually did not drink like that. I just like, you know. All business. All business on the back end. I can't relate. Yeah. Can you explain the party, though? Because it was a moment in time, like the year range and like what was happening. Definitely. Let's see. It was I had just, you know, I've been in fashion or whatever, working as a stylist and a personal shopper for a couple of years. And somehow I used to work for Big Boy's wife and her best friend. They had a boutique in Atlanta called P. Valentine. And a friend was just like, you know, you should definitely manage artists. I don't know what possessed me to do it. I was what, 22, 23. And in doing so, I was like, well, nobody knows who these kids are. Well, they're not kids. They were actually grown men, much older than me as well. And I was managing them. Like I was the child in this situation, but you know, I was just like, let me start a party because nobody would book them for shows. Nobody would like book them at their parties or the DJs wouldn't play their music. So I was like, I'm just going to start a party so I could play my artists, their music, the people that I like give jobs and opportunities to graphic designers to create my stuff, you know, just like. bring on the homies. And that's what happened. It was just like a joke at first, like Atlanta is the city of 10,000 heirs. The thousandaire millionaires. Damn, don't fire shots at me on my podcast. Damn. But I lived in Atlanta. I get it. I was that person in Alex Gideon's club in the section and then like going home in my fucking like Honda Hooptie. So I get it. So I was like, damn, I'm like the epitome of Broken Bougie. Like I have like, you know, champagne taste on like beer budget. So my party is called Broken Bougie.

And it was also like I had another party prior to that called The List. And I was just experimenting with a whole bunch of different like get togethers for friends and like minded folks. But it was definitely a special time. The years were like 2006 till 2012 is when I was throwing the party. But it was a time when also like I'd met Caleb. who started sloppy seconds in Atlanta with a friend, uh, re and Ian Ford. And then they split apart, but then like Ian and re and I were really cool. So like, um, yeah, it just, it was a moment in time. It was like that blog era of rappers, you know, like cool kids, kid sister or magazines, 100 list. Like these are the things that you aspire to be. I believe, I believe that Jason, did you make the herb 100 Jason or I already know what it is dog. So you have made the Herb 100 at least once. Yes. Yes, I have. So we're in that elite club, Jason. Wow. Damn, I'm feeling left out. I ain't got Forbes 30 under 30. Chris, you need to get out of our section before I call security. Security. No, it was a time. I mean, I think we were all probably similar age when that was like. We all lived through that shit and probably made money off of it in some way. Yeah, you just made money selling Coke and we made money off the door and off the bar percentage. I didn't sell Coke. I just did Coke. Don't get it twisted. You supported the ecosystem. Exactly. Got it. I think you guys made money off of these parties. My ass was making like, I thought I was doing something with the whole marketing aspect of it. Like 99 cents before 11 p.m. But, you know. 90% of the people that came came before 11. So I had the same thing where it was, it was free Svetka alcohol for the first hour and everyone would just come and get like at nine 59, you know, all the broke motherfuckers in LA would show up in line and they would order six drinks at a time. And before the club was even cracking, everyone was blacked out, fist fighting each other and shit.

I will never forgive myself for offering Svecca as an open bar option. You know what I'll really never forgive myself for is the fucking cool people that were throwing around money back in the day. The cool cigarettes. Do you remember that shit? I took all of this money. You get two packs for free when you sign up or whatever? They take a picture of your driver's license and they give you two packs of those nice little menthols. I had stacks of them. I didn't even smoke them. I remember Campbell doing that too for a long time. Honestly, it's crazy to think about how – I mean I guess that's just age too, right? But there were truly no cares in the world. It was literally like nothing was going – the temperature of the world was so much different than it is now. It's hard to imagine that whole lifestyle. completely different. We were the last generation of people who didn't really have to care about shit that much. We were the last generation of this analog digital crossover, which I so appreciate and I'm so grateful for because I cannot imagine just growing up in this digital world. This is my entry point. Yeah. I'm grateful for the posters and guerrilla marketing and the flyers initially back in the day. Same. Same. Yeah. I mean, I think that is a big, we talk about that a lot actually about that, that kind of cusp and like remembering a time before the internet and then living through it, like improving and becoming like a true part of daily life. But I don't – yeah, I'm very glad that I had to mail order stuff with stamps. It's an important part of my development. Shout out Columbia House CDs. Now we're really aging ourselves. Let's move on to TikTok. Have you guys seen TikTok? You guys heard this thing, TikTok? So did you live in New York and then Nashville or Nashville then New York?

No. So I'm Palestinian. I was born in Kuwait, obviously, because of just immigrants, immigrant parents and taking refuge in Kuwait. In 89, when the Gulf War was like simmering, my family moved me out here because my siblings were in college out here. My mom had passed. So I'd always lived between Atlanta and Nashville since 89. And, you know, I'm one of those like. kids that didn't have a green card at that time so i would go back and forth between the middle east and jordan and uh spend the summers in jordan with my family so my 20 year old uh sister and brother can hang out for the summer out here in the u.s um that was actually back then what was it like going back and forth between like tennessee and the middle east yeah uh total mind fuck um yeah you know i'm Too American for the Arabs and too Arab for the Americans. That's the way to sum it up. You know, it's, it's the best of both worlds. I mean, not in a bad way, you know, like it was just, that's why I was able to do a party like Broken Bougie in Atlanta because I was, I always call myself a dabbler, you know, like as much. Yeah. Do you now. But yeah, no, I mean, like when I finally I got stuck on a trip in Jordan one summer, that's the US embassy was just like, oh, you qualify for a green card. So we're going to cancel your visa. And I was what, 11 years old. So I got stuck in the Middle East one summer and just lived there for two years until my family was able to get me a humanitarian visa from the United Nations. to get me to move back to the U.S. in 96. And that's when I moved back to Atlanta. And, you know, I lived like right near Grady. Like I grew up in that area. And that's when like, you know, shit wasn't really that sweet back then in Atlanta on those blocks. So my family was like, you know what? We're going to move you to Tennessee with your brother. So that's how I ended up in Tennessee.

And then came back. Oh, okay. Yeah. But my family's always been between Atlanta and Murfreesboro, Tennessee and Nashville, Tennessee. And then in 2002, I was just like, you know what? I'm done with this. Like, I'm going to go back to Atlanta and stay back. And you came at the perfect time. Yeah. Those were some good years, man. I mean, granted, like I was coming, I was not staying in Tennessee, any opportunity that I had, like every. freaking holiday weekend, every Christmas holiday, every summer. Like I was coming back in the nineties, you know, to Atlanta. Um, but my family just did not want me to go to school and, and Atlanta and, you know, it is what it is. What do you think about, we, we had, uh, somebody you might know on the podcast, Joe Coscarelli, who's a New York times. He writes about music for the New York times. And we were talking about Atlanta because he's writing a book that's based here. And I just do you have any theories or any knowledge you could bless us with about why the music scene is so rich? Like why you think that happened here versus somewhere else? Yeah, I mean, the thing is, like, I think it's just deep rooted history, Southern pride, you know, it's so many layers, right? It started like. with kill ali and la face and everybody like there's just such a rich history i think the issue though is that even though atlanta influences everything we're also our worst gatekeepers you know like we're really really gatekeepers in the city and unfortunately like you know i don't know it's hard because we don't have a lot of like media outlets in our backyard, like how you would in New York or LA. Right. So like, you know, and that's the only reason I would say that Atlanta did not become a bigger music city than what it already is, is because you couldn't do your promo runs in your own backyard. You know, you had to leave the city to go somewhere else. So as massive as the music influence on everything is, I still don't think Atlanta gets the proper respect that it should or has. Do you think that people, you know, but I think with a lot of things, you know, if you're in a band, if you're an actor, if you're an actress, you know, you want to move to New York or L.A. where I think if you're in, if you work in rap music, hip hop, or you're part of that culture in some way.

You might move to Atlanta or stay here, which I think is also kind of a rare thing. Yeah. Quality of life is much better. You get more bang for your buck. That's true. I mean, your peers are there. That's what's dope about the Atlanta music scene when it comes to, like, hip-hop and R&B. You know, it is a black mecca. And at the end of the day, like, you are in your element. You know, like, this is the... beauty of atlanta right um but it's kind of like a time warp at the same time yeah yeah like there is no creative inspiration which is really really frustrating and it felt like you know i i was even a victim of that where i was like i gotta get out of here before i get stuck you know like i mean same i mean same i left as soon as it made sense for me you know what i mean but i think that At the time, I didn't think about it that hard because I was young. I was just like, yeah, fuck it. New York seems cool. It worked out. I think that some people just outgrow where they're from no matter what the business is. I dream of days of going back home to Atlanta. Actually, more so Nashville nowadays. I would love to go to Nashville. I don't know. We have that conversation a lot. You know, how can Atlanta get better, be better? And, you know, I think Atlanta is going through those weird years right now. It's like that puberty stage between gentrification and being its authentic self, you know, back to its authentic self rather because it was authentic. We'll see what happens in the next couple of years. No, for sure. I think it's definitely at a tipping point in some ways. I agree with you 100%, especially after spending some time here as an adult. So did you start in the music business in New York after the PR job?

No, so it goes back to being that whole dabbler situation, right? I was working in fashion. Were you working at The Standard back then? Yeah, I was. Okay. Yes, I was. First employee. Okay. First employee at The Standard Hotel? What do you mean? No, it's a store. It's a store in Atlanta. A clothing store. Yeah. Is that place still around? Yeah, it's at the mall. It's at Linux now. When I was working in fashion and working at the boutique, I started with Bow Wow's mom and then Big Boy's wife and her best friend. That's when I got approached about being an artist manager with a group named Proton back in the day in Atlanta. That's how I got the music bug. I was just sadistic and was like, oh, you know. I have no experience in the music industry. Now I'm going to be a manager. And oh, shit, what does an agent do? Oh, I have to book them shows. Oh, what's a press release? So it was like trial and error. Like, you know, it was training on the job, literally. And that's how I got into it. Because, you know, once you get bit by the music bug, it's like, oh, well, now I have to prove that I can make this happen. And, you know, went from managing artists to show promotion. So I did Drake's first sold-out show with my homies. We did J. Cole, A3C. I was one of the first curators at A3C when they changed their whole narrative from Backpacker. What is AC3 for people who don't know? A3C is a hip-hop festival that started in Atlanta. And it was very, very much super... I don't even know how to explain it, but it was not it, in my opinion. Like backpackery? I just can't put my finger on it, but it ain't it. You know, I just can't. It ain't it. Some J. Cole shit? Yeah, if Jermaine Cole's involved, we ain't involved on this podcast. No, don't do that. Do you fuck with Jermajesty like that? Jermajesty, you guys. I didn't say it. Do you fuck with Jermaine like that? You guys. It's starting to sound like it.

I'm surprised. You don't have to defend him on this podcast, but I want you to know that we are steadfastly against him. I mean, I do see your tweets. I definitely see your tweets. Speaking of, what are your thoughts on Chris Black's tweets? Just from an unbiased opinion of yours. Legit my favorite account ever. Yes, let's go, baby. That's what we like to hear. Anyone and everyone, he probably says all the things I wish I could say, but in the position that I'm in, I can't say. He is a martyr. Yeah, exactly. He is a martyr for the people. I'm falling on the sword. Someone has to. I realize you guys actually met at the Casey Musgrave show. We met at the widest gathering in the history of Los Angeles. It was so good. Rainbows and butterflies. It was. It was good. It was so good. It was very good. But I needed to get that out there. But look, I can relate to being bit by – I mean I literally did the same thing in the music business. And then unlike you, I just probably got out of it a little too early. Whereas I think you stayed the course and kind of figured out like a real job. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. No, I mean like – You know, I guess Twitter, Facebook, MySpace saved my life because who knows what I would be doing right now, honestly, because I've definitely moved, you know. I used Twitter to sell out Drake's first sold-out show ever in under seven minutes back in the day when no one was on Twitter. Where was Big Drake? Where did Big Scorpion play on that tour? Oh, not even at center stage. It was The Loft. It was the middle part. And the only reason was because management at the time was like, no, we just don't think like this is first show. We don't want it to be empty. And I'm like, trust, like we can fill a 3000 seater. And they're like, no, no, no. Let's just go with the [redacted address]. And when I tell you that line was around the building twice, it was crazy. Was this so far gone? Yeah, it was so far gone. Damn, a classic.

Do you and Drake still stay in touch? No, we don't. No, we don't. You know, it's a classic case of like, you know, being the person that puts, you know, creates a blueprint or trend forecast something and then it pops off and then like everybody else gets like. $20,000 booking off of it and like movie deals and book deals off of it. And I feel like I've had that story so many times. And that's another reason why I stopped. I was like, Oh no, y'all aren't making money off of me anymore. That's it. I mean, there, there definitely is such a thing as being a little too early, uh, to, to certain things where you get the shine, you get the recognition, you get the, you know, the self-satisfaction of being the first person, but then, you know, the bag has not, the full bag has not arrived at that point. And then other people can just take advantage of that. Yeah. I tell people all the time, like how I was able to leave Atlanta or why I was okay is that I had to come to terms with the fact that you can create the blueprint, but you might not be the one eating off of it, but at least all roads lead back to you. And that creates other opportunities. So like I have zero regrets, like it's beautiful, but I learned a lot in those times and you know, it's, it's. Bragging rights. The real ones, no. Yeah. I think that's a problem we suffer with as a society now, especially with young people, is the desperate need for credit. When it's like, no, it's fine. It always is true. The right people know if they need to know. 100%. I'm a firm believer in that. There's nothing more that I love than walking into a space and someone not knowing what I've done, what I've contributed, or who I am, and then having other people tell them. I love being the come-up kid in every situation. I don't have to sit here and tout what I do all day long. Other people will tell you. It's unbecoming.

It is. Yeah, it really is. And we unfortunately, that's what social media can be for a certain kind of person. It's too easy. But I will say, like, I mean, for I think we come from the same era where we did the behind the scenes work and that's how we operated. And, you know, when you do behind the scenes work, you don't talk about behind the scenes work. You just do. But the beauty of social media is that I've been encouraged to get a little bit better. you know, story tell a little bit more because I think that's another thing about Atlanta is that if we were able to document the way these kids are documenting what they're doing, music scene in Atlanta will be completely different. And I'm not talking about like the two chains and folks like that. I'm talking about like other artists, you know, you know, the Holly weirds back in the day. You know, those are the kids that if we had the ability to document the way they're documenting now, it would be a whole different world. It's true. No, I agree. And we did not have that. There's no document. There's no documentation. If there is, it's, you know, it went away with my space probably. So, yeah, I tried to start a website called come up kids.com that I lost because I didn't have $120 for hosting. That's how it was. When they hit you with the hosting check. That was brutal. I was like, do I go to the pawn shop? I was like, fuck a website. I don't need it. I tried so hard to document the scene between Nashville, Atlanta, Toronto at the time, Miami. Trying to connect the dots. It was a lot of work. It wasn't what it is now. Beyonce dropping a whole business directory. We were doing that in 2006. No, you're right. That Beyonce business directory shit is really wild. It's really cool. No, it really is. It's so dope, but that's what I mean. That's the kind of stuff that we've been doing, but because there wasn't documentation or interest in it back then, nobody knew about it.

No, no, you're right. You're right. And Beyonce, I think if Beyonce sneezes, we know about it. So that might not be the best example. Do you think there's anything that we can do as creators of the blueprint to not have creative directors of... rich people take our ideas and get hired by rich people and be their creative directors, I guess. Good advice. Okay, cool. All right. I can, that's something I can understand. Maybe I should be a creative director. That sounds dope. So like, what do you really do? It sounds cool, but you know, well, Hey, Hey, don't knock the creative director title. I gave that to myself back in 2007. I mean, Look, everyone did. As soon as we created our Instagram accounts, we all became creative directors. Oh, yeah. CBCD. Were you early on Instagram or were you early on Twitter and stuff, but you took some time? No, I was an early adopter. That was my thing. Back in those days, I was fanatic about being an early adopter, not to only get my name, but I just wanted to be. You thought that LO account was going to be popping, didn't you? You're like, yes, right. I got my full name on LO. You guys be jealous. All of that. Yeah, no, I was on Twitter in 2008. I was on Instagram. there's a way for me as an employee. Like one time the media ops guy, like look, I had him look it up for me and I was, I think one of the first million to like sign up for it. Oh, that's crazy. Yeah. Like I was really, really into that stuff. I mean, right now I have like what, 30 pictures on my page, but there was a time when I had 8,000 photos, you know? Damn. So, so. Walk me through that purge, please. Yeah, let's go through the archive process, please. We need some advice, maybe. I've gone through two different purges. The first one was in 2013. I printed out 4,000 photos. You printed them out? What did you do with them? I have them. I have them in a box here, actually. So you Marie Kondo'd them. You printed them all out so they won't be lost.

yeah before there was archive or anything i really thought i was so you didn't care about the rainforest or anything interesting okay Nope. Nope. And did you, did you go like on your phone one by one, just hitting delete or did you have like inside technology from working at the gram or is there a third party app? No, this is 2013. I didn't work at the gram till 2017. Okay. Um, but no, there was a, I think the website's name is called Prince studio or Prince the gram. It's like a, it's a, it's a photo printing app that you can connect to your Instagram account. So you just go through, pick all the ones that you want. They print them out after they printed them out. I deleted all of the ones that I didn't want. So that was the first purge. The second purge came like 2000, maybe 18, 19. I don't remember now, but that one, at least I worked at Instagram and we had launched the archive feature. Oh, okay. I see. Yeah. Pre-archive. Yeah. Pre-archive was brutal. Like, whew. That took a solid week. Yeah. And I just actually archived about 400 photos like two, three days ago. I think it's just weird times right now. A lot of people like energies too much is out there in the world. So I was like, you know what? I don't want a lot of people in my business. Not that I have a lot of business on Instagram, but. Let me tell you something right now. I'm sure you can talk to some tech guys in the office, and that fucking archive feature has been working overtime for the past couple weeks. Oh, yeah. That archive feature is tired. He's gasping for breath. He needs a drink of water. Yeah, no, it's been very illuminating how certain things come out. But, you know, for me, it's like I always had the foresight. Since 2009, I've been erasing my tweets. Like, literally. And you're not even saying wild shit. Or maybe I'm not even saying anything. And I'm like, y'all are not going to have me messed up out here. Like I'm erasing my tweets since 2009. And it's a joke now because people know when I put up the gif of, uh, and I've never seen men. I'm black by the way, but I was told what this will Smith, when he uses that gadget to erase memories.

Yeah, a classic meme. Yeah, so when I use that meme, people know that my tweets just got erased. It's become like a joke at this point where they send it back. But yeah, I'm like, nah. So when you go back and delete old tweets, are there certain tweets that stay? Is there a criteria that they have to be met? Or it's just spring cleaning, everything's got to go? No, like I legit have... this whatever third-party app that i have signed up and it just deletes it every week like every i don't go yeah i don't i don't go through and be like oh this is a cute tweet might delete later no so even so if you have some fire that has thousands of likes boom it's gone yeah who gives a shit chris black me i mean you know i kind of i appreciate that though because i do think that like no i mean it's amazing i don't really give a shit but like people are so mad that it's like i i don't i don't know i mean that it's it's a lot to go back through that's for sure yeah and you know what's so crazy is that people will send me screenshots of my tweets now And thank God it's nothing bad. It's more like pseudo-fake motivational shit that I might have said. Embarrassing, but not cancelable. When you tweeted this picture of Rise and Grind, I really felt that. I just wanted to share it with you. No. It's like, you know, I may have been in my feelings and posted a lyric by Fiona Apple or some shit. I don't know. We've had a lot of discussion about Fiona Apple on this podcast. Are you riding hard for the new album? No. I'm not either. I'm a fan. I'm a diehard fan. I like it by default, but I don't love it. It didn't hit how the others hit. We needed that record to hit at that time, didn't we?

Yeah. And I mean, I went hard. I saw it. I was waiting. I saw that it dropped. I ordered my merch, even though the label is going to send it to me. Damn. When she wants to support the artist. You'd love to see that. You'd love to see that. I definitely support artists. I buy albums and merch all the time. That's the least I could do. You bought that Fiona on Bandcamp double gatefold vinyl. I definitely bought the vinyl and the sweatshirt, even though I have a package that was sent to my office that I'm probably not going to for the rest of the year. Well, it's a write-off, bro. Yeah, there it is. Because you listen to a lot of music. I'm always pretty impressed with the range. Well, coming from you, that's – thank you. I'm just saying because – Well, no. Look, everybody has their little hiccups. Oh, my God. There's a lot of things. Look, I like a lot of bad stuff. Not as bad as J. Cole, but I like a lot of bad stuff that I get killed for all the time. But I just think that it's interesting because I don't know if this is the way you grew up, but I grew up listening to punk and hardcore, and it was like, that's what you listen to. You know what I mean? And then as you get a little older, you're like, oh, I should maybe try this other stuff. Now in the world, I feel like it's really respected and encouraged to be as diverse as possible with your listening, which was not the case for me growing up. Was that a household thing for you, or did you just do that yourself as you got older? I definitely did it for myself from a young age. I would hear certain songs in movies and be like, what is that? Billie Holiday, what is that? who harvest moon what what is that song you know um like van morrison cool what is that you know so i did a lot of research i don't know music just resonated with me and that goes back to that whole calling myself a dabbler and why i wanted to throw a party like broken bougie because i wanted to hear tears for fears and also wanted to hear like gucci man in the club like that was me you know

When I look in the mirror, I see half Van Morrison, half Gucci Mane. So I understand where you're coming from. I mean, I paid like a $450 ticket to see Van Morrison at Carnegie Hall. Oh, shit. How good was it, though? How good was it? It's so epic, and I was probably the only person under the age of 35 at the time. For sure. Did you have the full band, like a crazy band? The full-on band. And I went by myself and I was just in freaking heaven. That sounds, I mean, I paid like 600 bucks to see the Rolling Stones a few months ago, I guess, at this point. And it was extremely worth it. Like extremely worth it. You know, one festival I really wish I would have went to and I regret, honestly, was Old Cella. I was there. Were you there? It was hot fire. Best concert I've ever been to. I forgot you went to that. Who played? The one I went to was Roger Waters and then The Who opened for him. But there was also Dylan, The Stones, Paul McCartney. I mean, I remember it was Neil Young. Yeah, Neil Young. And Rolling Stones for sure because you brought up Rolling Stones. It was the best concert. Just the user experience of it was optimal. for somebody who is above the age of 30, I would say. Yeah, I would. I have so regret. I don't even know why I didn't go because that's so up my alley. But yeah, that's how I grew up. And that's what I like. Like I have a whole D4L snap like playlist. But then I have Michael Bolton music and Ryan Adams. Can you please share the D4L playlist with us when we get off the pod? It's called the 940 Piedmont playlist because that's my that was my address during that era. So I'll definitely share it with you. I have a playlist called Tennessee Country Roads. You know, like I just. Hell yeah, brother. Hell yeah, bro. I mean, what's going on? Do you think country music's about to have a reckoning? We were talking about this because the Dixie Chicks just changed their name to The Chicks, which seems very strange to me. Lady A. Yeah. Like why can't they just change their name but make it good? I don't understand why. I don't know why they have to change their name and make it bad, but like.

I think country music has become more mainstream and a little more diverse in the last like 10 years. I mean, you're, you probably know more than me. No, it definitely has. And I mean, I think it's a generational thing, you know, like you grow up listening to country and making country music, but you're like, it's kind of like the daughters of the Confederacy. Like, you know, things is coming out about that. Like people don't realize like the influence those women had, like. they raise these young kids to know a certain kind of way in a life, you know? And you have to think like they came up at a time when people were being taught to be colorblind or like you're, you stay in your lane and that was their lane. I mean, Dixie chicks are, it's a bad example because they kind of, you know, alienated themselves by the comment they made some years back, you know? But other country artists, like they, they, created for that audience and they're older now like they grew up on the shit that we grew up on and they're realizing that it's wrong and i think we're gonna see a major shift you know i think so i think i think so too i mean i think this nascar stuff the country stuff those are both like two kind of industries that are ripe for for some big changes um and maybe the most needed Yeah, no, for sure. We'll see where it goes. I mean, Casey Musgraves is a perfect example, I guess, of an artist that came up, you know, at a certain time, but wanted is rooted in country music, but country music can be pop too. I mean, Think about some of the biggest pop songs. Yeah, for sure. They were country songs initially. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it has ability. I mean, the songwriting, it's beautiful. I love country music, older country music, not new shit. Oh, you're not banging Kane Brown in the Prius? I'm surprised. You know. No, no comment. But like a guy like that, I'm like, this guy is terrible, but he's huge because it's people want to see themselves. You know what I mean? Like if you're, if you're a fan of country music and you're black or mixed race, there's like not, there's no one to look for, you know? So it's like, I think that that's why someone like that has had such a meteoric rise, you know, for, for many reasons. Well, we have to, I would be remiss if we didn't discuss the versus battles.

Oh, boy. What do you want to talk about there? Well, you know, it's not really my shit, to be honest, but it has been insane. And today I saw something that reminded me of Joe Biden commenting on the D-Nice stream, which is so classic. Wait, what happened? Like in the early days of quarantine. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. March 21st, as we like to call it. When Joe Biden just put the thumbs up emoji in the stream, which is so good. It's so funny. It's so good. I mean, no one deserves it more than Derek Jones, aka Be Nice. He's like the nicest guy in the industry. Well, what is – so did you – I think it's cool to hear about how the idea started and how it came to you. How you first heard about it. Honestly, which one? The D&I stuff or Versus? No, the Versus. Versus, I was familiar with the concept because obviously Swiss did it a couple years back. I think it was him and Timbaland or him and Just Blaze. I don't remember exactly who. But I remember tuning in back in the day, but it was before Livewood. So when D-Nice happened and Live was popping off between the Global Citizen stuff and D doing his DJ stuff, Swiss and Timbaland decided to go live with each other. And I tuned in that night because I was tuning into all of us. But you're saying, so they didn't have it. Instagram wasn't involved at the beginning. No, we've never been involved. So what I do at Instagram is my job is to keep the dots connected between the music industry and us as a platform. It's my job to educate everyone in the music industry, be it artists, producers, labels, whomever, on the best way to use Instagram. And because I come from creative strategy and marketing, I also ideate. some creative strategies with our partners. So in this case, you know, they were live and they were having a little bit of issues. So they all emailed me with their manager on email, like, Hey, we can't connect like while they were live and I was giving them best practices. So obviously we got on the phone and I've known Swiss, like he's been by the office. I've worked with him. So show time, et cetera. I'm sorry. I forgot he's switching to zone.

I am aware of that, but I prefer Showtime, so I'm just going to rewrite history. Old habits die hard. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, sorry. No, Showtime Swiss is epic. It's legendary. But, yeah, no, I mean, it went from there to just making sure that they have all the best practices, just hearing who they have next, trying to make sure that I connect with those artist teams so they have no hiccups. even though a lot of them do have hiccups. You know, and that's kind of it. So you guys are kind of like signal boosting a little bit and offering some like geek squad assistance on the tech side of things? If you call me the deep squad assistance and like the tech geek squad, then that is I. Yes, it is me. That is I. That is I. You like being geek squad. I just feel like, honestly, I feel like it's been one of the biggest brands, for lack of a better term, to come out of quarantine. I think it's something that people have really gravitated towards. It's just interesting that it's worked so well. It's the perfect storm. That's all it is. It's the perfect storm. We're all home. Think about it. It's a music that we all came up on. It's nostalgic. It reminded us of better times, good times, cheers to better years, whatever. Of course, it's going to work, but as things open up, things are going to shift. I would love to see it. you know, hit the road or something happened with it. Um, I don't know. We'll see, but we Instagram, like we were just there as a platform to make sure like that's the home where it's been and we'll see where it goes from there. But as the, has live in general just been such a priority as during quarantine for in general, I just feel like it's been such a, it's had the biggest uptake of anything I've seen. Yeah. I mean, live was definitely not the biggest priority. pre-COVID and then COVID happened and I will say that a lot of it has to do with me and my colleagues just like when we talk best practices with our partners we talk about four things right we're like if you use all four surfaces aka IGTV live feed and stories holistically you know you'll have better engagement and the good thing about it is the last three years that I've been at Instagram we've always stressed to use live but the thing is artists

actually don't feel comfortable using live. They need all that auto tune, you know, all the production, like, you know, like, and not even just from a performance standpoint, even talking to themselves, like they need an audience. So people like artists, especially in public figures, weren't using live like that. But then when we're all quarantined, they miss that. They miss that connection and that communication with other folks. So it was just like, I remember pre, going into quarantine life we i sent out a best practice tip to a bunch of artists teams and labels and i was like hey remember if we go and have to self-isolate you got live if you want to directly connect with art with your audience yeah and it just went off like and you know i think it's a new behavior and it's a prioritized behavior on the platform and you know i think it's going to be a new way of life especially when we talk music like not coming back till 2021 or 2022 You know? Yeah, no, I agree. I mean, I watched, you know, I've watched a few verses. I watched the Alicia and John Legend because our friend works with Alicia. Oh, yeah. What's his name? Yimmy? Yeah, yeah. Yimmy, exactly. Yimmy? He was there at the show with us that night, too. You met him that night, too. Yeah, and then I remet him when I was working with Alicia and them for the Grammys. Yes, yes. Yeah, he's good people. He's the best. But so I watched that one in full and that one to me seemed, I guess they have just so many hits between them. And I love making fun of John Legend. So it was like the perfect combo for me. But you know, everybody, everybody comes to, everybody comes to these things with different priorities, you know? And I understand that, you know, I understand that it takes all kinds. We've been talking about, you know, the MySpace and the Ellos and all these other social media platforms. Do you feel like, all social media platforms are kind of doomed to have a shelf life or a time of death? Or is there a chance in the future where they go on forever? I think as long as man has like, and when I say man, like humans. Not man's. We're not talking about Zuckerberg. Not man's and them. But no, as long as like humans have the need,

this like need to like share uh social media is always going to be there i guess i don't mean i don't mean social media as a whole i mean specific social media platforms like you know friendster and myspace and elo and all of these platforms that have come and eventually gone you know do you think there's a time where a facebook and instagram and a twitter you know get eventually taken over by something new and better and less corrupted, perhaps. Oh, see. That was not a dig. That was not a dig. That was not a dig. That was not a dig to those. Don't do it. Don't do it. But that's how social media platforms die. Less of the corruption, but more of like, all right, you did a great job with Friendster, but here's our new version of it. It's called MySpace. And everyone's like, okay, this is 20 times better. We're going to switch. and then the same thing happened to myspace etc i think everything is evolutionary and i think at the time with friend stare and like myspace it was literally a fucking moving train laying down the tracks not even laying down the tracks it was just like a moving train on god knows what i think you know like With Facebook and Instagram and Twitter and other platforms, I pride myself on being on a moving train that is laying down tracks as we go, but we really do work with a lot of intention. I don't know. It's been around this long. MySpace lasted X amount of years. It was fun. For instance, I could name a million social media platforms that started initially and to this day that started and come and go. But I think it's going to be like the three big labels, UMG, Sony, and Warner. You're always going to have it. It's always going to be there. People are always going to want to share that they got engaged or they had their fifth child. know whatever so like when jason when jason pushed up a picture of a sandwich or something really important like that avocado toast turmeric golden milk tea i don't fucking know there's always going to be a trend but i think that i think what's interesting is that that stories are just less like high def

You know what I mean? So I think people like that. I think that's given Instagram a whole new life when that was introduced. That just gave it a whole new, a whole new element that, that is like got people hooked in just as much as, as the final product. Yeah, for sure. I mean, that's the thing about Instagram and I promise you, I'm not saying it because I work there. Obviously I've been like an early adopter and it's helped my career before it got me into this position working there. people you know it's again it's an evolution like when instagram first started it was high quality content and like architect buildings and you know it was all this shit and then there was a shift in behavior you know and that shift was i want raw authentic organic but a little bit curated You know, a little bit curated. And I think you're always going to see a shift in behavior. I mean, we're seeing it right now with live. It's live consumption. Like what else is going to happen? That's the thing. That's what I mean by it's a train that's constantly moving, but we're laying down the track as we go. And I've worked at Twitter and I've worked at Instagram and, you know, it's not going anywhere. Damn, you really covered all the bases. Shit. We haven't covered the best part about Instagram and the worst part at the same time. Let's talk about the Explore page. what do you mean listen don't tell on yourself it is what you make it but i also i i have dubious i i i'm dubious about some of it you know don't tell on yourself don't tell on yourself because explore page is nothing but you and the closest people to you and what they consume okay well that's that's what i wanted to know because i don't know i don't i don't know how it happens but maybe you can offer some more in-depth insights. So the people that you are friends with and follow can also influence the explore page. Because I feel like in the beginning of Instagram, the explore page was really an organic discovery and I could actually use it to discover things. And now, you know, the algorithm is sort of, you know, the snake has eaten its own tail and it's on a...

a crazy orbit that i don't even know what's going on yeah i mean it's honestly like that the best way to put it is if chris and i follow each other and we consume the same content and you and chris obviously follow each other but i don't follow you at the end of the day what's gonna happen is i'm gonna follow you after this team follow back it's all good yeah team follow back but No, that's like the best practice we tell everyone, right? Is that if you want to be introduced to a new audience, just engage with your current, you know, friends and family as much as possible because you're going to pop up in their explore as well. Because the way it works is it's like literally the algorithm is just like learning what your interest is and the community around you and serving you. content that it assumes you are going to be into if you don't like it just don't like it so okay i got it i got it i mean there's it's normally a fine place my explore page it's no it's usually a good mix of of some things that i'm interested in a few things that i don't care about but when things pop up a lot like when tiktok was When everyone was doing TikTok dances and it was super huge, my Explorer page was just flooded with it and I never engaged with it, never wanted it, never looked at it. But it still just kind of shows up and I'll click, show me less, show me this less. But I guess TikTok is just the dancing. It's too big. Yeah, Jason, this is not about algorithm. This is about TikTok taking over the world. This is bigger than you. You know what I mean? You know, it's all love. It's a lot of fun stuff on TikTok. Do you use TikTok? I definitely do not use TikTok. Wow, you just went from it's all love to I don't fuck with TikTok. No, no, no, no. TikTok is the enemy. No, do not put words in my mouth. No, that's just my statement. Banging on my chest.

It's on site when I see TikTok in the street. Some of my closest friends work there. But no, no, no. I just, I have no rhythm and I can't hold a note. Like legit. Twitter is the place for you, my friend. Twitter is literally the place for me. I obviously don't share. I use a lot of stories. I don't take a lot of photos because I'm stuck in the house. How many times do you want to see my dogs? But no, TikTok, I say no, I don't because I legit have zero rhythm. My husband makes fun of me and I don't want... That's embarrassing. Have you tried CBD? What does that do? It just loosens you up, baby. It's all good. Just try a little. I'm loose. Not loose like that. I'm loose. I just can't dance. Could you give me what are the five top things that appear on your explore page then? Let me look right now. I honestly never look at my explore page. We're about to get the heat right now. This is about to be the tea. Let's see. No, I mean, right now I have... bi-black racial justice guides. I have veggie buns six ways. I have which meat is best, beef, chicken, or salmon. Because I'm also a chef, by the way. So I went to culinary school in the last three years. I was about to mention this to Jason because Jason's also a chef. So you guys have that in common. But did you just stop working and do it for a couple years and then go back to work? I started Instagram in March of 2017. I started culinary school January 2017 on the weekends. I was working full time and going to culinary school Saturday, Sunday from 7 a.m. to 7 p.m. Damn. Well, when this all blows over, you and I can cook up with Chris.

I would love that. I definitely miss cooking. I'm very Arab in that sense where I cook for 30 people at any given time, even for my husband and I alone. It's like very much an Arab granny, auntie mode. What are your go-to Arab dishes? Oh, man. There's like mlukhiyye, which is the North African like jute plant. That's kind of like spinach. That's really good. Melfouf, which is like a stuffed rolled cauliflower. I mean, cabbage leaves, kind of like how grape leaves are. But with lamb meat and rice. I mean, there's so much. It's good Mediterranean food, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right up my street, actually. Okay, cool. Come on over. I'm going to – I will. I will. Well, I mean – Come to Crenshaw and have some Arabic food. Are you subtly telling me I need some culture in my life? Because I don't disagree. Okay? Okay? I didn't put that together, but it sounds like you've just read yourself, bro. Well, when you're being attacked, you know what it is. You know what it feels like. Goodbye, Christopher. Well, thank you so much for joining us. This was a real pleasure. And it sounds like you're holding up pretty well in quarantine. Thank you. No, thanks, guys. Is there anything you want to plug on the internet or any new stuff you're working on that you want to talk about real quick? Not really, no. Just follow my shit. That's it. Not even. Okay. You don't even have to do that. It's all good. If you see me on the streets, just say hello. That's all. I feel like oftentimes when I'm following Chris and his tweets, I feel like it's a two-way, one-way combo. So when he hit me, I was like, oh, this is going to be fun. It's like Twitter tweets in real time. Damn. It'll be fun. That's exactly it. We've rebranded conversation as tweets in real time.

Yeah, we're going to add that to our one-sheet deck. Hey, remember, trend forecaster, blue printer over here. Give me my goo. Yeah, we'll see. You're fine. You're the one with the salary position at a giant company, okay? We're not worried about you. I'm going to put a light 50 in your Sweetgreen account, so that'll hit soon. Don't worry. Thank you. Thank you. We'll talk to you soon. All right, guys. Take care. Bye. Bye.