821. - Diana Yen

All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian. And they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world. And they do it three times a week, Jason. Does that sound familiar to you? We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place. All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcast. or watch on YouTube. How long gone? Just turn the fucking gas on. It's another disgusting day in New York City. The concrete smells. The air smells. The sweat is trickling. But luckily, I'm counting down the hours so I can escape to the temperate paradise of Minnesota. Wow. I mean, I saw some videos of the subways flooding and AMC movie theaters. closing down for wet repairs. What you were describing is something more akin to the Christina Aguilera dirty video. Is there any sexiness to this wet NYC? No. Yesterday was the worst of it. Then it rained. Of course, when it was time for us to go to ODM last night to meet Ryan and Jonathan for dinner, it started pouring rain, like biblically pouring rain. It continued to pour rain all night. Now it's still disgusting, but a little better. But the rain did. I'm sorry for all our cinephiles out there, but you guys memorializing an air-conditioned box where you watch something on a screen feels a little extreme to me personally. It's not like it's a famed place that's been around for 100 years. It's a corporate movie theater.

Yeah, I don't understand. I just don't. It's like mourning the loss of an Office Depot. That's what I'm saying. Like, you could do this shit at home, guys. Like, what's the big deal? I don't understand. There's 1,700 of them left. We'll be okay, guys. It's not Barry Ballroom. It's not like these walls, if these walls could talk. Yeah, and it's not a metrograph. It's a place that's doing Spider-Man and Jurassic 17. It's not, you know. Everybody needs to calm down. Everybody needs to calm down. But, yeah, the weather has been. um diabolical on the east coast i'm sure in in la everything's just dandy the usual kind of melancholy that bright sunshine just all day long well i'm i'm currently in palm springs and it is a little closer to the 109 degrees but it's actually you know it's pretty manageable i'm okay with a desert heat i was actually out doing some kettlebell walks what do you call them when you just carry the carry the bells around it has a name for it it's called a suitcase carry yeah i was i was walking around suitcasing these hoes and you know just get the shirt off suitcase around 100 degrees blasting you it really you know when you you feel as if you're done worked out when like your body is kind of like A different kind of sweaty and hot and tired and sore. Stop, stop. I'm getting excited. I'm getting excited. Your farmer's carry is kind of getting me worked up to go outside. Yeah, when you do a farmer's carry in post, I mean, higher than 100 degrees, just direct sunlight right over you, you know, it feels different. It's funny because the farmer's carry has sort of come back into vogue recently at Equinox. And it's just funny to watch these. bro like guys with their shoes off walking like trying to walk in a circle around an extremely extremely busy gym and i'm just like bro this ain't the place like i understand this like you'd be better off doing this on the street yeah i was doing my figure eights around two palm trees dead ass

I was like, take the hammock down. I have to do my gay little walk. I got to do my little slut walk. I got to do my carries. Yeah, that's good. I'm glad that you got it in, though. Yeah, I did my, you know, and also when it's 100 degrees, it's more of a, we're going to do one set of one. And that's kind of a wrap. Love a one of one. Yeah, I just need, I need some sweet relief from this. It's just been, it's really gnarly. I have to wear a suit tonight, too. So it's, you know. Well, luckily we're going to. I mean, I guess dead of summer, Minnesota, what a climate. It's where you want to be, to quote Nate Dogg. All right, people, why are you wearing a suit tonight, huh? I just have a dinner I have to go to and I have to wear a suit. It's like a GQ Canale dinner that I have to wear a suit for, which is fine. Oh, no. I have to go to a Canale dinner that's black tie. It's not black tie. It's a regular suit. But I don't think you understand, honestly, because you've never lived here, what it's like to really show up to something where you want to look your best and be drenched with sweat. and there's no way around it. Because either you take a car and it's $150 and you're 30 minutes late, or you take the train and you're on time and sweating, or you take a city bike and you're on time and sweating, or you walk and you're even sweating more. There's no right answer. A friend of the show, Jess Jubilee, she was like, it's cool knowing that like... an uber home will cost more than a flight to miami because the the subways are just like flooded with water 100 that's what you're dealing with well i ask you this then as a southern gentleman i think you should be owning some type of you know linen seersucker yeah a summer suit and also now that mesh is in vogue i don't know if you've been doing a water fast getting ready for the tour but are you Is your body mesh ready? You can tank under it. I don't... I ain't doing mesh. Answer the question. Are you mesh ready or not? I'm always mesh ready, but I'm not going to wear it because I have self-respect. Certain people can pull off mesh. I'm not one of those people. I was at...

I told you this. You're not a party boy. I was at Supreme with Sam Jane on Saturday, and they have like a mesh football jersey. And I was like, wow, this is so lit. Like, who is this for exactly? And it was still in stock. It's for Benito Skinner. The only person on earth that would wear that is maybe Benito Skinner. My friend Jordan Berry, friend of the show, he can pull it off. He pulled it off. Oh, I think it's cool. He was at the Dodger game with it on. It requires a certain level of... S-W-A-G. I would say S-W-A-G as well as N-O-N-W-H-I-T-I-E. Non-white is what helps with that. Because I think we're just so swagless as a people that we just don't understand. The mesh is a bridge too far. Not today, white boy. Maybe something in a lycra, maybe something in a rayon. You got anything else back there, guys? If you've seen the 80s surf film North Shore, where the kid comes in to Hawaii, he wants to learn how to surf. He brings his little hot dogger board, you know, neon pink with spikes coming out of it and shit. And they're like, no, you got to start on that board that's carved out of a tree that's 80 feet long. You got to work your way up to the mesh, young buck. You do have to work your way up. And that's why I'm not even in the same zip code. I'm not the same zip code. Could you at least do a mesh flat? Like a mesh ballet flat? Oh, I could definitely do an Alaya mesh flat, of course. Men's 12 if you have it. I mean, I think Balenciaga made a ballet flat, but it's not mesh in men's sizes. So we'll have to wait on that. I think this is a great idea. I want to know who the cross-section of people who are wearing the size 14 Balenciaga ballet flat. I think it's a very limited group of people. There's three Vogers in France. the few have them in their cart the few the proud i mean after seeing lebron over at bad bunny show he might be remember when you saw oscar de la hoya famed boxer the photos of him wearing like the fishnet like french maid outfit with the boxing gloves i could see yeah you know lebron's done it all he's seen it all he's touched it all why doesn't he start wearing a ballet mesh flap yeah it's like diddy having sex with guys it's like there's nothing left why not

You know, I've done it all. We're already right on the border. All these rappers are just wearing, like, skirts and all, you know, some guy named Destroy Lonely is dressing like a fucking, you know, a woman who does, like, leather work. Who's the guy that Drake brought out at Wireless Fest that was named, like, Mink? Did you see this guy? I've never heard of him. I've never heard of him. I have no idea what it is. I'm sure he's... He had the rugby player hair on the back. I mean, I know in London he's hot shit, but in America he's not even cold diarrhea. We ain't in London, though. That's the thing. We ain't in London. Some people got cauliflower ear. He got cauliflower head. Whole head cauliflower. His whole head did look like a piece. I mean, that haircut is only second to the mullet is like the young TikToker haircut where it's like a low fade on the sides and then bangs that are kind of poofy is the haircut. Because it's tourist season in New York. You see all these kids. Every kid's walking around looking like a minor league baseball player. Wearing long shorts with Nike high-top basketball shoes and that stupid fucking haircut. And then they have the crazy wraparound sunglasses. The pit vipers. They all look like baby Gronk. They all walk around like they own the place. If you're a kid that's dressed like that and you're under 18, it should not be illegal. for you to give them a little whack. I'm not saying lay them out. No, but just let them like a check. Just like check them. Yeah, yeah. You should be able to just up the backside of the head. Maybe we should hire their peers, like New York peers, to kind of set them straight so it's a fair fight. You know what I mean? So like some of the New York Jets and Giants, is that who you're talking about? I mean, a precocious... D-League Met players? A precocious 16-year-old New York City high school student I think could put some... put the scared straight yeah exactly scared straight for haircuts it's what we need get these fucking bozos in line get them in line um okay let's see here uh i thought of you i was scrolling the palm springs uh restaurant and cocktail bar scene of course um oh that's slim pickings of course but there was a there i found a gay bar it's it's nice on yelp they will let you know if it's gay or not

just so there's no whoops-a-daisies, what I'm sure happens here. But there's a place, not the reviews were in the threes, not the fours, but it's a bar called Quads with a Z. Nice. And I was like, is that just a funny, irreverent name? Or is the bar named after our favorite muscle group of a man's body? I would be willing to bet my life that it's named after that muscle. I would also be – I'm going to say it's more likely to be named after that muscle than it is a four-wheeler or whatever else it could possibly mean. 1,000%. Well, this reminds me of what – was suggested to us by our friend rossom is that we do a live show at the dick doc in in provincetown and i brought that up to ryan and jonathan last night at dinner and they were very supportive of the idea and i so i think it is something we should look into they said there are hotels that we could stay at that would be safe for us um because we can't stay in a house with 10 guys you know i can't stay in a house with 10 guys i was saying you're gonna have to get flown in from dorchester over there because you can't really stay on premises It's going to be like Lady Gaga in Brazil. People are going to be howling outside your window like a fucking stray dog. If you're in Provincetown, if you have any sort of, you know. standing in the town. We don't want to do it guerrilla style. We want to do it officially. No, no, no. We want to do it officially. We cannot do anything guerrilla style in P-Town. No, exactly, no. So if anybody in P-Town wants to have How Long Gone Live at the Dick Doc, you know where to find us. Yeah, and our booking agent, Sam, you're listening right now. Get some avails. Yeah, Sam, check the avails on the dick doc. I don't know who's booking it right now, but we could find out. Yeah, see if you can get some holds at a venue that's likely called Holds. Oh, is it holds or holds? Oh, got it, got it, holds. We have three holds at holds, the 9th, 14th, and a second compete on the 49th. Oh, it's super busy right now. It's super busy. Oh, this is for this year. Oh.

It's not 2026. God damn it. We'll see you in P-Town. All right. Get your tickets to How Long Gone Live. The show is ready. I have my old computer, Jason. It's clean for you. My new computer is up and running. I got two terabytes. I'm a new man. I feel powerful and clear. How many of those two TBs are you filling out? I don't know. That's what I want to know. I don't know. The guy told me I only needed one. Are you using it right now? Yeah, I'm using it right now. Where do I go? Okay. Click the Apple. Logo on the top left. Yeah, yeah. About This Mac. Diana, hold for one minute, please. Thank you. About This Mac. Yeah, go to that. And then, yeah, About This Mac. Okay. More info. Okay. About This Mac, also a Nate Dogg album. And then it's the name of his memoir. And then at the very bottom storage, Macintosh HD, it'll say blank out of blank. 1.24 out of two. Not bad. 1.24 terabytes out of two. I want to know how I have... You have more than double the shit on your computer than I do. It's photos. And I create things. It's photos and I've never, ever... cleaned anything off ever oh god i buy a new computer and i've to transfer it and i don't think about it again we have a guest today diana diana yen is joining us uh her new cookbook fire pit feast is out everywhere and i just saw a guy eating a muffin with a spoon and i want to see kind of what what my esteemed food panel thinks about this so let's get into it all right this episode of how long gone is brought to you by quince Jason, the temps are warming up. It's getting hot out there. Summer always changes how I get dressed. I need pieces that feel lighter, more breathable, and they're just easy but still put together. I don't want to look like a slob. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high-quality essentials that feel and look amazing. Breathable linen and soft organic cottons. Well-made basics but without the luxury markups. That rare balance where everything feels elevated. but still effortless. Yeah, Chris, linen season is here. I wore a linen blazer to dinner a few nights ago in the warm California sun. But, you know, you got that Italy trip coming up this summer and quality European linen pants and shirts.

Upgrade that look starting at just $34. You know, if you get a nice linen suit, a little t-shirt underneath it, some chill shoes, you're looking good, but you're staying cool. The inside of your special areas are nice and dry as you turn up with your besties. So elevate that summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com slash how long for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns, even on a nice holiday now available in Canada. That is Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash how long. That'll get you free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince punto com slash how long. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by a new podcast from The Guardian stateside with Kai and Carter. This is covering a lot of our bases, Jason. It's trying to slow down. The news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's happening in the world. And I know you particularly have quite a lot of questions. A lot of questions. But how often? Because we do this podcast three times a week and that's a sweet spot. How many times do they do? Three times a week. And I have a feeling just based on the platform and these talking points that they're maybe going to be covering different stuff than we do. That's just a guess. The Guardian is not some billionaire owned. They're not afraid to say what they want to say, brother. Yeah, Rupert ain't sniffing around in what journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman are up to over there at Stateside. But yeah, listen wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch it on YouTube. It's three times a week. And who couldn't use more news? Especially when it's not from here, let's say. Give it a listen. Give it a listen. Oh, this is huge for me personally. This episode of How I'm Gone. It was brought to you by TaskRabbit. Oh, baby, let me tell you something. This is not a joke. I use TaskRabbit a lot because I can't do anything. You need some art hung? TaskRabbit. You need something put together? A cabinet? Got to reach that cheese grater on the top shelf? TaskRabbit. Anything you need, TaskRabbit can take care of it for you.

How it works, TaskRabbit connects you with skilled taskers in your area. They can help you move. They can assemble furniture, repairs, yard work, mounting, and more. You can search for a tasker based on cost, skill set, availability, and past client reviews so you know exactly who's showing up and can have confidence that they know what they're doing because taskers have assembled over 3.4 million pieces of furniture, completed 700,000 home repairs. handled 1.5 million moves, and the numbers are just going up, Jason. Yeah, throw a little money at the problem. It's not so expensive, and that job that you really don't want to do is something that another person out in the world is very good at doing and would gladly do it in exchange for a little bit of money. So when life happens, your to-do list grows. Get ahead of it now and get $15 off your first task at TaskRabbit.com or grab the TaskRabbit app using promo code How long? Taskers book up faster, especially for same-day tasks. So book trusted home help today. That is $15 off your first task using promo code howlong with the TaskRabbit app or at TaskRabbit.com. Thank you for joining us first and foremost, but not to get into these like hot button issues right off the bat, but have you ever seen someone eating a muffin with a spoon still in the paper? Never. Like on the street in New York or this is like where? This was at Cafe Antigral, my local kind of coffee watering hole. And it was it seemed to be some sort of nerd. Like it was like two guys that were talking about, you know. tech stuff but i've i've just never seen that sort of behavior before and i didn't know if that's something that i had missed or if you guys had seen that before i haven't seen that trend happening at all but i could see a germaphobe or like well here's my here's my thoughts on it hi diana nice to meet you um i think that there's a trend of people who are especially like you said if this guy's in a meeting perhaps

He doesn't want to look unbecoming, honking down onto the side of a banana nut with some crumbles crumbling and shit spilling on them. It's kind of like how closeted guys are afraid to eat a banana in public and they'll just kind of peel it off to the side and eat it with a knife and fork. Or if you're from the school of a cotillion class or a formal, here's how you eat with your proper... muffin spoon and fork i am dan i'm not a germaphobe but i do like my hands to be very clean like after yeah after i eat i have to wash my hands no matter what yeah maybe this guy was on the go and he just didn't want to like he didn't have access to water i don't know just to water like sometimes you can't wash your hands if you're you know in the city of course no it very much was that he i can say safely he did not have access to water what i will do as a sort of uh last ditch you know effort is pour some water onto my hand and use my napkin and that does drip water onto the floor of the restaurant but if that's the only choice i have i don't know what else to do it sounds like when you're like giving your dog water at like a supermarket is where what i'm envisioning there sloppy you know what this is good because diane diana sorry you're you're a good person to ask about this chris he's not you know he's he wants to have those hands clean but he hates nothing more than the little hand-cleaning wipe that they give you, you know, when you're on an airplane to wipe down your surfaces or whatever? Yeah. Is there, like, a way that you can maybe make a new... millennial like matcha sesame inspired you know hand washing wipe that we can sell to like a vc company yeah this is definitely someone to like consult in the beauty industry it sounds like a hot thing because you can add all these like supplements and things to the hand oh and you'll have like well moisturized hands i mean it's a great idea thank you and i think it should be a two-part system sorry for interrupting you chris because you need

a little bit of that alcohol sting for the first wipe to let you know that you're clean, the astringent comfort, and then you go back with your second wipe to give you the bioavailable sea moss, whatever you want to smear on there. That's a nice idea. Do you use bioavailable sea moss? I also don't love creams. I don't love my hands. Do you like your hands to be super moisturized as a woman? Moisture is paramount. Very, very. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's where your age starts to show with the hands. You've really got to moisturize. Okay. Yeah. Luckily, the patriarchy protects me from aging in some ways. And that's not a positive. That's just a reality. If my hands look too pristine, I think people would think I'd gotten work done. Yeah, true. Because I'm sure there's a hand surgery you can get now. I think they have, like, moisturizing gloves that you, like, keep on. Or maybe, like, infrared or something. Infrared gloves? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, they have them now. Yeah, what difference? No, you're actually right. Like, what difference does it make? Yeah, I may have been familiar. I may know of something called baby feet. Of course. You squirt lotion into these socks and you wear them overnight? That's a real thing, right? Yeah. Those aren't socks. They're plastic booties, and it's disgusting. So you squirt into the booty, and then you just leave them in and got it. Exactly. My mom used to put my hands in socks at night so I wouldn't bite my fingernails. That's no joke. Like Vaseline on my hands and then socks up to my elbows. Oh, that's so cute. Yeah, it's really cute. Exactly. That's what I thought. That's what I told her when I was climbing. My little biter. Child abuse. Oh, my God. All right, so you're the second guest we've had in two weeks that is an Ojai resident. Oh, resident. You had a resident on? We had Mark Hoppus from Blink-182. I wouldn't call him a permanent Ojai-en. Yeah, true, true, true, true. But he owns property there. Yeah, nice. Yeah, I feel like you guys need to come back and give it another shot out here because a lot is happening. I've literally never been once in my life, and that's mostly because of you.

Just kidding. I've just never been. Yeah, recently, basically, you know, Eric Good that has the Bowery opened up a hotel. Yeah, we talked about this a little bit with Mark. And then my friend Brooks, who lives in Charleston, was there with his family. And he was like, it's amazing. He said, it's like. his new favorite hotel. So I do want to check. I'm sure you've been. Yeah, it's amazing. You just have this like small town vibe with everyone coming through, but it does feel city life because everyone that moved here during the pandemic from New York is like building stuff and really. active in the town so oh i see so they're bringing some east coast flavor yeah to the sleepy town oh my gosh yeah do you think they're doing a good job of mixing the oh hi valley culture with the you know dime squarification like how invasive is the tin fish program you know what i mean i think it's relatively harmless right now they are you know focusing on partnering up with also like your local. So it's never really like a big chain coming in and taking over. I think they're pretty mindful about having locals working there and just creating more opportunity in the economy. They're smart. They're like, we're not going to ruffle feathers around here. These people need their $18 muffins and we got to give it to them. Yeah. And there's also this place that search Becker just opened. You know, he had La Squina and the box lilies in New York. And his place is called Radio Roma, and it's bumpin' hard for this small town. Like, there's people waiting outside to get in. Okay, so Radio Roma's bumpin' hard? Yes. Did you say bumpin' or thumpin'? Bumpin'. Bumpin'. So you're saying that, what do you think the percentage of drunk drivers are coming from this place? How bumpin' is it? Well, it's a Mezcal bar, so... There you go. You answered your own question. You answered my question. Thank you. Okay, so it's a Mezcal bar in Ojai, and it's popping. It's the town's hot spot, if you will. It is. It's a little bit like Tokyo Music Bar, where there's DJs coming in, and it has that bouncy vibe.

and there was nowhere to go late at night before so it's our first place and people are really into it sure okay are you are you uh in a relationship diana are you single and ready to mingle i'm dating someone in la so i have to commute like everyone brings Brings in their love interest if you want to date in Ojai. Like if you're a woman. Yeah, you've got to import. Sure, sure. That's a comment. There's no corn-fed locals out there that's ripe for the picking? Honestly, I feel like there are a lot of confused men out here that their chick brought them to Ojai. Where am I? Exactly. Wandering around aimlessly. Yeah, they're like, this is nice, but I don't know. how we ended up here. That's pretty cool. I hope there's, I hope there's a secret support group for guys who had to move to Ojai because their wife made them and they have to, they're trying to get through it together. Yeah. They, they meet up at pickleball every week. So they definitely meet up at pickleball. That's exactly what people do. At noon, I have pickleball at noon. And then at two, I have, I'm pickling my okra. Exactly. And then that's all that we have left to do here, right? Exactly. Okay. So you're saying there's not much of, So when you go out to one of these hot spots or this single hot spot, it's coupled up or young people that are visiting. Yeah. I felt like it was a really distinct scene. Like all these kind of people that felt like they were from New York in their 30s and 40s were sitting at tables. And then there were these like 20-year-olds that were like dancing up on the platform and like, you know, kind of going off. Had a little bit of everyone there. That's good. Ojai needs that. Ojai needs 20-year-old people doing coke and jumping around, right? Yes, we need it. Jason needs to come DJ there. It would be really cool. Jason would love to come DJ in Ojai. I'm sure you could find a way. Sam, go get me some avails in Ojai. I guess if this is the only place, get me avail in Ojai, please. We'll wait for it to cool down a little bit.

I've only been once, and it was over a decade ago. So I'm basically in the same boat as Jason. But I'm willing to give it another shot. But when you're in New York, it's kind of a haul, you know? It is. I think it's just tacking it on to an L.A. trip. And I'd love to give you guys, like, my pixie tour. Your tour? Let me show you my Ojai. My Ojai? Yeah, I call it the pixie tour. It's named after the tangerines that grow here, like the little ones. Oh, so you have, okay, so you've got this. Okay, you've got this really thought out. First of all, I didn't know that small tangerines were called pixies. Did you know that, Jason? I've been eating the twink tangerine this whole time not knowing it was the pixie tangerine. Pixie tangerine, great drag name. Great drag name. Yeah, we have our own tangerine. For all of our orange motherfuckers out there. You're saying that this tangerine that you're speaking of only grows in the Ojai Valley region? That's right. Wow, and what are the flavor profiles, if you don't mind me asking? Orange. It's pretty much... It tastes like a tangerine. Got it. Yeah, skin is really thin, though. Really easy to peel. You don't have all of that white stuff. Okay. Okay, so it's easier to peel, but it delivers the same sort, like the way a sumo sort of just tastes the same, but it looks funny. It's a little juicier than it. sumo and sweeter probably okay i don't mind getting into the weeds with his i mean when's the last i i don't as a as a person who doesn't really you know care about food or ingredients that much i guess that discovering or hearing about a new kind of produce at 42 years old is just something you have to investigate yeah absolutely we're really proud of the citrus here like there's a sign every month during citrus season that's like which which tangerine or orange is in season okay what's your number one what's your top three citrus fruits then if you're an expert i would say yeah i would say so the pixie obviously number one okay number two is the page mandarin it's so incredible what the fuck is this i've never heard of this either page mandarin she does socials for celine i think that's literally page mandarin page mandarin sounds like an influencer selling me a 200 hoodie

She's the new best friend on Emily in Paris. Wow, that's good. Okay, say it again. Paige. Paige Mandarin. That's so good. And the third citrus out of the top three, the third one would be we have limes that are yellow that are super sweet. Whoa. You know, usually you buy at the supermarket. Girl, that's a lemon. No, it's a lime. It's green inside, too. The flesh is green. Whoa. Yeah, the ones at the market are... basically unripened so you can tell the difference between a lime and a lemon but actually these you let them ripen on the tree and then they they are yellow and really sweet but still have that edge so i'll tell you what if my lime doesn't have that fucking edge i'm throwing it back yeah i like my line so then you have this deck so that sounds like the watermelon radish of citrus Yeah, you're not expecting it. You open it up and you're like, oh shit, this is a lemon. Say what now? Yeah, I send it out. The flavor is cool and all, but you slice it thinly and you put it in a cocktail and everyone's like, ooh, different. What kind of trees do you have at your house though? I have a pineapple guava tree and I don't know if you've had this fruit before. They don't really sell at the market. Hold on, you got a pineapple tree? Pineapple guava. What is that? Is that a freaky little hybrid? It's not. I think it's the flavor of a pineapple in the form of a guava. Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold on, hold on. So you're telling me that I look at this guava and it code switches to pineapple when I put it in my mouth? Exactly, exactly. The amount of times somebody has code switched in Chris's mouth over the years, I tell you what. Woo! Oh, that's actually, I've never heard of that either. I'm learning. Honestly, Diana, I'm learning so much from you. I've never, I've never, Jason, were you aware of this one? No, no, no. And I also may not believe you. I think you're just naming two fruits and putting them together because you're like, I have a pineapple guava tree. Most people have never had it before. They actually don't really have it at the market. So you have a, you're the only person on planet earth with a pineapple. And you also, also I have a boyfriend, but he lives in LA, so he's not around that much. No, no, he goes to, he goes to the,

other school in town so he goes to a different farmer's market actually it's like a lot better he's super hot but he just goes to the other farmer he knows the wisers so it's a little different oh wow okay so you got pineapple guava what else what else do we have on property my property's not that big i just have a small yard. That's the main fruit tree. Okay. So you got one major fruit tree. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't working with an orchard here and we had to go through a full list. I'm not, I'm not that level. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So you're not, you don't have room to plant where there's no, get the lychee flowing. I don't have that much space, but I also just moved here from Brooklyn like a few years ago. So I'm not like ready to go next level in that way. Right. Trees take time. Yeah. Like a lifetime. How long have you lived? How long have you lived in the land of citrus? Three or four years now. Okay, so you escaped L.A. for the quiet life. Well, I moved from Brooklyn, and I lived in Brooklyn for like 17 years. Living in Brooklyn for that long would force me to Ojai too, so I understand. Kind of having to make a switch, if you will. So you're living in Brooklyn and then doing the food, you know, the cookbook writing, the food styling, the this, the that, the creation. you eventually had to go to the mecca of food influencing and set up shop in Ojai, where the sun is shining, the citrus is flowing. Absolutely. And there's like... People who have outdoor cutting boards and stuff. Yeah, I think when you work in food for a long time, you realize you're just kind of like cooking in an apartment kitchen. And once I would come visit California, the produce is so good that I just realized it's actually all I really need for my work. So I came out here and I grew up in Orange County. I'm an OC Asian. Okay, calm down now. Don't pander. Don't pander. Do not pander. What city are we talking about, Yen? Town Valley. Oh my gosh. Jason's about to read you to filth. He knows every little thing about you already. No, no, no. Well, I mean, it could be the other way around. Did you know of me or my wife at all growing up in Orange County? I didn't, but I started listening to your show during the pandemic and I was like, wait, Dime Square, which my office was in. And then I was like, oh, see, like I grew up there and heard of every like.

like straight edge shows. Like all of that was part of my childhood. Okay. So you like, you like some, you like some tatted up white boys that didn't shower that much is what you're saying. I did, but now I'm kind of more of like trad wife, like, you know, farmer's market person. She's shifted. I mean, you got, you got it out of your system. Yeah. You got it out young. It's a, it's a better way to be. I think the maturity shows through, but what is fountain Valley comes up a lot on this podcast, I would say in passing, in passing. And I just, Are there any landmarks maybe that I would know that maybe have a reason to visit Fountain Valley besides your parents' house? Just for Dard's, the Vietnamese restaurant. It's really good there. There's an amazing Vietnamese restaurant. And is it like you've got to put your name down and wait two hours? Or is it like a pretty normal experience? No, you're going to have to wait. And there's like a huge mob of Vietnamese people. So it's going to take a long time to get in. But it's good. They have a couple locations, I think, so you can spread out. But yeah, it's good. They're known for. The spring roll that has a little crunchy thing inside of it. Yeah, that's so good. A little fried rolled up cruncher. Hold on, what is the fried? Hold on. They take like, is it like a wonton skin? Yeah. And then they roll it into like a straw and then deep fry it and then that's like a little crunchy backbone for your soft roll. That's like when I used to paint the crease of the blunt with lean. Jason, you know what I mean? That's kind of like that, yeah. Give it a little structural integrity. Yeah, structural integrity, exactly. The spine of the spring roll, the spine of the blunt is what I'm... It can come alive in your mouth. It's like a pop rock. But also another great landmark in Fountain Valley, Fountain Valley Hospital, where I was born as well as Carolyn. Oh, my gosh. You guys are both born there? Wow. We were both born in that hospital. Two minutes from my family's house. That's amazing. Okay. A lot of greats have come from Mountain Valley. Don't be ashamed. Are there any others besides those with us now? Well, Chris, the town's motto, I remember, I forgot what year it was, but one year, when you're driving in between cities, they'll have now entering this, and then on the major streets, but then on one street, it'll have the big, proper,

like cement sign that like they spent some money on to be like the big one and one year fountain valley announced that their their city motto was fountain valley a nice place to live and then us living in huntington beach really clowned you guys for having such a kind of generic limp dick town motto. I like it. I like how classic it is, kind of. It is limp, but I also like it. It's a little like lorem ipsum-y to me. Yeah, it is. It does feel placeholder-ish. Working title. I don't disagree. I've just never... No shade. I love how Diana's silent now. No, no. I'm just thinking of Fountain Valley and just going out there and trying to get away, but then like sort of... coming back and living a more suburban lifestyle that's what i'm doing right now do you get bored though or do you like this is this like the way you want to live no i'm okay so bored no chris chris i was the first year i was here i was gone at least half the time and I think that it wasn't until this year and I started doing book tour that I was like, damn, I need to be domestic. I'm doing all this fire cooking. I kind of need to do it in the U.S. Okay, but when you need to fly out of Ojai. And don't bring up fire cooking. That's our job. Sorry. We talk about the book when it's time. Where do we go? What airport do we fly out of? What is the closest airport that can get you to a real destination? Ideally, you'd want a flat Santa Barbara because it's beautiful, but it doesn't go anywhere you want to go. So I usually have to go to LAX for that. Golly. See, this is like when I knew people that lived in Athens, Georgia, where I'm from. I'm from Atlanta, and people would be like, oh, yeah, it's an hour and a half to go to the airport. And it seems so crazy to me, but then I realized that it takes an hour and a half to get to JFK. as well. Yeah. Because of traffic. So it's kind of the same. It's kind of the same shit, but it doesn't feel the same in my mind. Yeah. It's the same kind of lifestyle, but it's, you know, it's worth, it's nice coming back here for sure. I bet it's nice coming back, but is it nicer to leave? That's the question. Yeah. I mean, no, it's great. I think it's better to come back. It's better to come back. Okay. All right. I'm sure coming back to New York is disgusting. Every time I'm like,

both energized and disgusted with my surroundings. So I can only imagine what it's like to come back to birds chirping and, and, you know, tangerines falling into your arms. I actually love going back to New York. It is the chaos that I crave. Do you get, do you go too hard? I don't think I go that hard, but just standing outside and being on the streets already like kind of going hard for me. It's like chaos all around you. You just like, you know. You don't have to do anything to feel that energy. You're kind of right, actually. You don't even have to get a bag anymore. It's just already pumping. You can just let it wash over you. Let's say you're in New York and you come back and then you have to do more open fire cooking contractually thanks to whatever the book publisher is. What are we doing to deal with the smell of wood, fire, and the clothes and the hair and the socks. Is this an issue for you? This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Squarespace. Obviously, Jason, you and I spend a lot of time on the World Wide Web, so do our peers, our listeners, our friends, our colleagues, maybe even your parents if they're freaky. And if you're doing anything in the world... writing, taking pictures. I do topless boxing. You need a website. Exactly, a website that works, that does what it's supposed to do, that allows you to be creative but also business-minded. Jason, there's one place to go for that, Squarespace. Yeah, Chris, I'm over here. I'm modifying calculators and putting Claude inside of them so you could cheat at school. And I just want a place where I could have everything all in one place. I can have the SEO tools. So those future graduates can find me and, you know, I'm able to accept, quote unquote, donations for my services that might be gray area. You know what I mean? And then email campaigns. Hey, I got a new, you know, 2.3 version upgrade. Boom, boom, boom. Get the analytics going. Raise some money. You know, show your investor all of your cool analytics of what's going on. They're going to want to get in early and we can use Blueprint AI to make your website look as professional.

as your competition, if not more. So head to squarespace.com slash how long for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use offer code how long to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain. Hi Talk House Network listeners, it's your old friend Nels Klein from Wilco here. Wilco is touring this summer and we'd love to see you somewhere on the road. We're playing shows this June and July in Rochester Hills, Michigan, Chautauqua, New York, Lafayette, New York, Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, Vienna, Virginia, Forest Hills, New York, Portland, Maine, Tulsa, Oklahoma, Memphis, Tennessee, LaGrange, Georgia, Charleston, South Carolina, Virginia Beach, Virginia, Wheeling, West Virginia, and Columbus, Ohio. Plus, there are even more dates, some with Willie Nelson that I didn't even mention here. So please go to wilkoworld.net to see the full list of dates. We'll see you on the road this summer. Visit BetMDM Casino and check out the newest exclusive, the Price is Right Fortune Pick. BetMGM and GameSense remind you to play responsibly. 19 plus to wager. Ontario only. Please play responsibly. If you have questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connects Ontario at [redacted phone] to speak to an advisor. Free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. It's not really an issue. You just have to... Whatever. Yeah, you just get used to it. You're completely smoked out. I mean, it is in your clothes and hair. All right, Snoop Dogg, calm down. Because my issue is... My issue with hot pot, my issue with open fire cooking, my issue with campfires of any kind, Korean barbecue, I can't leave smelling... Or even open kitchen restaurants where you can leave... smelling like the food I'm and I know that in in Korea you know they have like

special contraptions to sort of like save your Birkin and your, your coat, you know, from these, from these smells, but they can put a condom on the Birkin. They have the fan that sucks all the, yeah. In the U S we don't have that, but I see you. You're saying you've been desensitized after, after doing, yeah, I think if you're doing it outside, it's really like, you're not even focusing when you're inside at a K barbecue place. Definitely. That's when it gets you. But I think outside it's like, it's just part of being outside. part of nature. Yeah, no, I think you're right. I think it is part of me. I kind of agree with you, and it should be romanticized. I'm the one with the problem. Oh, so you can't handle the smoke. Hey, Morgan Wallen. I mean, camping's out of question then. Dana, I wouldn't, you couldn't, there's no amount of open fire cooking you could offer me. Not even Air Mez or Air Mail could get this guy to camp. I would camp maybe at I don't know. I mean, do you consider a high-end yurt camping or do you consider that cheating? No, I think that's a good start. That's how I started. I have a glamping tent I could set up for you in Ohio. What does a glamping tent consist of exactly compared to, let's say, a regular kind of REI model? Okay, so it's one of those canvas bell tents that makes you feel like you're on safari. Yes. And then inside you have an air mattress. Okay. I like to put like a sheepskin on the ground and I have like, I have a sleeping bag on top of the air mattress, but then I top it off with a cashmere blanket. Okay. So you're bringing, okay. So you're saying you're still on an air mattress and you're still technically on the ground, but you have a cashmere blanket to sort of offset any discomfort that could arise. Yeah, then I have like a little oil lamp, you know, the glass one. Okay, you're making this shit cute is what you're saying. You said, halt, who goes there? Yeah, I got the little fairy lights up and, you know, I'm making really good food for you guys. Okay, you're making it sound pretty good. Do you put fairy lights on the pixie tangerine tree? Because that would be like...

That would be cool. I'd have to go to a citrus grove to do that. You'd have to trespass. Obviously, we know your book will detail great foods that are grillable. When you put them on the open fire, it only makes them better. Kabocha squash, a lamb chop, a whole chicken, whatever it might be. I want to talk about things that you should never grill over an open fire. I'll get it started. Romaine lettuce for a Caesar salad. Oh, yeah. That gets really soggy. I haven't had too much success. Who wants black and soggy lettuce? Let me ask a question, Jason. Let me ask a question. Is there maybe a certain technique or move with the wrist that can prevent this, or is there no way around it because of the elements at play? You know, if you have to do it, I would do the highest heat sear possible and, you know, literally one second. on each side just like kiss it okay so it still has some structural integrity but it gets some of that sear flavor on them but when you're out in the woods it feels like you're destroying a beautiful delicate vegetable i agree i would agree i would agree when you're thank god you agree when you're dana when you're out in the woods like this what is the salad to accompany you know what do you do you Is there a go-to outdoor salad? But also first, I want you to answer. Oh, yeah. What's bad? I'm sorry. What you don't grill. What you don't grill. I think that grilled watermelon had a moment. And again, I don't think it's that great grilled. Oh, hell no. Fuck that. Agree. Keep my ripe-ass melons away from your flame. No way. And the only people who do things like grilling watermelon are people. who are not masters of the grill. They just saw it on TikTok and they're like, corn goes down, watermelon goes down, pineapple goes down, shrimp goes down. We're cooking that shrimp for 45 minutes. It's all fucked up. You know what I mean? Yeah. I think the watermelon, like serving fruit probably shouldn't be on the grill or anything with a super high water content. Because it just gets, it just doesn't work. It's just, that's not gonna, it's not gonna work. Yeah. That's a good, a good point. The water content. Don't get the mushy.

What about a grilled avocado, though? I hate hot avocado. I hate it. Wow. Baked avocado with the egg inside? That shit was terrible. It's, like, mushy and, like, it turns all mealy. It's the worst way to eat an avocado, for sure. I agree. It's off-putting. I've had, every once in a while, I'll have a really properly well-done, like, Japanese tempura avocado where it's thinly sliced. Like, if, like, a real master does it. It can be good, but... Only Japanese. This is cool, guys. I've never thought about this in my entire life. I've never thought about hot avocado ever before, right now. You've never had it? Check your privilege, Chris. I'm sure, exactly. Check your privilege. I'm sure I've had it before, but it maybe wasn't memorable enough to have stuck with me. You've probably had it. But I guess I probably would have had a tempura at some point, Jason. That's a good point. Yeah, you're a tempura guy. So you don't like hot avocados. So what if there's like an – but you're saying if it's – not just if it's on a hot burger, let's say. You're saying if it's cooked. I see. Okay, I got you. Yeah, the egg inside of the avocado hole is like just because it fits doesn't mean – It should go in there. I've never seen that either. Is that like a brunch girly thing? Yeah. Okay. It was like a low carb lifestyle on Pinterest. Okay. Because what is it called? Egg in a hole when you do it in bread? I love egg in a hole. Yeah. That's really good. So this is the white girl version of that. Yeah. You heat up bread, you got toast. Billion dollar invention. You heat up avocado. It's a foreign. It's a mouthfeel. That is off-putting to a human, I would say. I had some disappointing avocado this weekend. I didn't really want to bring it up. Talk your shit, brother. Well, it just feels like it's high summer. Avocado should be ripe as a motherfucker. Lazy work. I couldn't eat it. I'll eat anything. I'm a disposal. I don't care. Was it over-ripened, or what was wrong with it? It was hard as a rock, so you tell me. Oh, no.

And again, I don't keep up with produce seasons because I don't cook. But it feels like summer, all of that shit should be good. Avocados have their own kind of thing going on, though. They have their own timeline that they work off? They do. And honestly, I remember East Coast avocados being really hard to find a good one. But now that I'm over here in California, it's... They're a lot more buttery and they don't go bad as that. Oh, I like buttery. I have a tip if you want for how to ripen your avocado really fast. Well, please. Asian mom tip coming in. Let's go. So you take a brown paper bag and you put your avocado in it. It could be like rock hard. And you put in either a banana or into the same bag and roll it up. And it's, like, ready in two days. Something like, I think the apple and banana, they ripened fast. And, like, it releases some kind of plant chemical that makes the avocado ripen. This is good data. I've never heard this before. And I am inclined to believe you. And I don't know why, but I do. It's true. I've been doing it for years. You get the brown paper Whole Foods bag or Ralph's bag. You put in those stinky brown bananas. You can almost see the stink lines coming off of it like a peanut's character, and all those gases will turbocharge the ripening process of your avos. And then if they get too ripe, I've heard that you can put them. Submerge them in water. Oh, damn. Jason knows a lot about avocados. Water in the fridge, and that will hold the ripeness for like a week. Well, he's a Cali. I mean, you know, he's a Cali local. I feel like avocados are your greatest export. They are. I mean. There's a new avocado coming out. I mean, I don't know if you guys care about that stuff, but it's hot. It's hot. What do you mean? What do you mean a new avocado is about to drop? Yeah, it's about to drop. It's going to hit Whole Foods. I was at an avocado farm, and they basically said they've been working on this new avocado called the Gem. The Gem, like Jennifer Aniston, or the Gem? Gem. G-E-M, like the lettuce. Gem, like the sparkle, because it has these little sparkles on it. It has golden sparkles. Okay, so you're saying the skin of this new hybrid. Bro, I don't want that.

Avocado that tastes good. It has body paint on it? It's dotted with gold flex, and it's basically an evolution of the Haas. It has a higher fruit-to-seed ratio. So imagine there's just much more avocado to flesh. Oh, I see. So there's just more for the getting. So they've genetically modified the avocado pit to be smaller, so we get more flesh to pit. It's sort of like what we've done with the The seedless watermelon, Chris. Oh, I see. And I do like a seed. I mean, I'm a watermelon lover. With enough fruit ethnic cleansing, we can get those nasty seeds out of here. Get these seeds out of here. I'm going to colonize some watermelon. That is interesting to know, though, because do you think this is going to make waves in the industry? It is. In the guacamole space. Okay, so you think, what if Chipotle invests? How big do you think this could get? I don't know. I don't know how many places are doing it. The farm I went to is one of the oldest in SoCal, so they're really excited to introduce it. Maybe it'll expand. Is this something that we can invest in? Yeah, you can. I can give you the farmer's phone number. I would love to call the farmer. Hey, this is Chris Black from New York City. I heard you have some new sparkly avocados. Just give me their stock exchange ticker info. I'm assuming they're a publicly traded farm. I'll send my broker a note. I want to pump and dump the gem. I just feel like that's a space that is... Tough to innovate in at this point in society. So I'm glad that there's some farmers out there pushing us forward. A lot of innovation. Imagine a smaller seed means less bruising as it's getting transported. Okay. All right. Now we're getting into stuff. Once we fully. remove the seed, then we can work on our browning. Imagine you slice that avo into cubes, and then you put it into the plastic airwound tray, and it stays green all day long, maybe two days. Oh, that's perfect. Oh, man. I love fans. So you're a big fan of GMOs as well, Diana. Very cool. I didn't ask the process of developing these avocados. Smart. Smart.

I didn't ask how my Jordans got made either. Why are you putting a syringe into the avocado, sir? Don't worry about it. You don't worry about that at all. Hey, Tim Apple, how come my phone's so cheap? You don't want to know. You don't want to know that, Jason. You do not want to know that. Okay, well, speaking of another food trend that you might be very well-versed to speak on, what are we going to do about matcha? Where are we at on the matcha story arc? Is it just getting started? Is it time to go bye-bye for a while? Is it going to be up and down for the rest of our lives? What do you predict in the future of the matcha space? Matcha is staying for sure, but actually what the new thing is is hojicha. It's like huge. Everything is hojicha now, which is like the roasted green tea. I know it's a different thing, but how different is the flavor? Because matcha tastes like dirt. That's my main complaint. Say it again. I don't want to mispronounce it. Hojicha. Hojicha. Okay. What does the ho taste like? It's nuttier and even earthier. Even earthier. It's more dirt mouth. Honestly, it's like a fire roasted. It'll have some smoky, nutty flavors. Mezcal. It's mezcal. Yes. Oh, yeah, that's a great call. And what do you get it? And it's used the same way. It's just like you get a latte. It is. The only thing with the branding on Hojicha is it's not bright and colorful like matcha, so that's going to be a little harder for it to get big. It just looks just like coffee. Oh, it's literally brown. If you have an iced Hojicha latte, it'll just look like... one of your cold brews with some milk poured in. Oh, I see. So you're saying that the green shade of matcha contributed to its success, and this just looks like brown water, so who cares? It's just not going to be quite as visually appealing, I think. How much does it cost? Similar? Same as any other matcha. Okay. I'll try one of these next time I go to a fifth wave.

There's a place here in New York on, I think it's on Great Jones or Bond, next to the OVO store. It's called 12-something, and there's literally 100 people online. They hand out umbrellas to block people from the sun. Like it's the Cartier store in Milan? Yeah, I've never been able to look inside because it's so busy. They're waiting for matcha? Oh, yeah. They're waiting happily for matcha. Diana, how many whisks do you own on your person? I have four, but I only use the mini one. It's the only whisk you need. You don't need the big one. It's the travel size mini one. Yeah. You can aerate better when your hand is closer to the whisk. The other one is so far away. It's hard to hold, actually. With my carpal tunnel, I couldn't whisk with something oversized. So you're not a sniper, more of a close... close, a little oozy. You want to get real close up to a hand-to-hand compact. They just work better. I think it air eats a lot faster. If you want to whip air into it, it's better with a small whisk. I feel like I've seen... Jason, don't you have a keychain that's a whisk? Oh, I love those. I have one too. I got it from CIA. The cooking, not the government agency. It unfortunately did break. I'm sure they have them. Did you use it? That was my next question. I used it to break up other powders and things like that. Oh, my God. What? Jason, I used it to whisk an egg. I broke my mini whisker crushing up ketamine. Damn. I don't think it's supposed to be for that. It's not supposed to be for that. But it's also a novelty that shouldn't beat an egg either. So you guys both are at fault here. It's obviously an ornamental cosmetic piece. But, you know, sometimes you're in a handicapped stall and what do you got? Whisk it up. That's why you keep that thing on. Because sometimes some of your powders can get caked up. So you're using this, you're using, when you're saying you use the smallest.

whisk this is for matcha or this is in your life in all of cooking all of cooking i only use them a small whisk wow okay i think most food professionals all swear by small whisk too i know a lot of these chefs have small whisks i've heard that i've heard that i've heard that the egos are huge but the whisks are small i actually i have I have two small whisks and one Big Daddy whisk. I only use the Big Daddy whisk to make whipped cream, I guess. You do it by hand? That's pretty impressive. Of course. You freeze the bowl, you freeze the whisk. And it's a nice little, you know. Wow. So it's like a beer mug. You put it in the freezer? It's a little bit. Well, basically, when you're making whipped cream by hand, if everything is cold, it'll whip a lot easier and faster. Like everything, meaning the contents and the bowl and the whisk. I see. That's right. That's right. Someone, some genius somewhere was like, what if we freeze the whisk? I mean, imagine being the person who invented that. Freezing the bowl, freezing the whisk. Yeah, I'm sure they're living large. from that well that's the problem is you know they're probably I mean they're probably dead by now but they did not really hit a payday off of that innovation that is a good that is interesting though I've never heard that before and I feel like I've had your homemade whipped cream before wow that's a lot of hand work that's a lot of wrist back action I like couldn't do it too sweet well you know you want to feel because because the cream talks to you you don't just want to look at it you have to listen to it and see the cream will say Wait, Dana, you're saying your cream doesn't speak to you? Huh. That's interesting. I use KitchenAid for that. No way. I would never do that. I bet KitchenAid's a sponsor, aren't they? No, they are. We use KitchenAid only. We only use GMO avocados. We don't all cook the same way, Diana. But actually, on a serious note, somebody who is with your experience through the years of all the creation that you've done.

on both sides of the cooking spectrum, what makes more money, food making or food styling? When you say food making, you mean like cookbooks or do you mean like work in a restaurant? Just like creating food or taking food and making it look good. I mean like styling clothes versus producing clothes. You know what I mean? Could be another way to put it. Honestly... I think they both don't make any money. Because I've done it all. I've done it all. Option C, none of the above. Okay, it's a race to the bottom for all of the above. But you have reached, so you're saying you've reached some of the upper echelons of the food styling world. Definitely. And even then, it's not necessarily... Cha-ching. No, I've done fast food burger styling. I won't name the brands, but yeah. It doesn't make as much as you think. And then you're at a frying station. You basically feel like you're working in a fast food restaurant. Can I ask you a question? Because I don't know a lot about food styling. I know that it's a job that people seem to lie about having. I believe you. I believe you. But is it... So you're saying that you're responsible if, all right, let's say you're doing a Carl's Jr. commercial, not in the Paris Hilton way, in the burger preparation way. Right. And so you are in the kitchen, you make the actual burger, then you also plate it and arrange it for the camera, and then you kind of stand by and zhuzh it throughout the shoot to get it right. Is that fair? That's exactly. Okay. Exactly. And they're pretty strict about their guidelines. It's not like you can make your own artisanal patty or something if you were working with a food brand. You have to do what they say. For legal reasons. When you see somebody take a bite in a commercial, obviously it's too clean. No one bites like that. No one bites into a giant hamburger and the ketchup, the mustard, maybe the mayo, the avocado, whatever.

It doesn't spray out the sauce. No, I think it's all post. A lot of that's post. Okay. That makes a little more sense because it makes the food like the fake steam coming off of it. I'm like, I don't need it to look this good. It looks good though. I mean, people that style burgers for a living, that could be their only thing. Wow. So you're saying you could be a burger styling specialist. I tried it, but I quit after a few times. Because the burger wasn't inspiring to you? I didn't feel like it aligned with my values. Is that bad to say? Sure, of course. I just didn't want to do fast food. So what is considered the holy grail, the top of the top of food styling? Is it fast food? I mean, I guess money-wise, but maybe more so editorial-wise, like working for Bon Appetit or a certain cookbook? Yeah, times have changed a lot. Yeah, it used to be. There obviously is styling for a big fast food brand, but that's not what most people aspire to do. I think most people want to do cookbooks and still love doing print magazines. I was an early editor at Kinfolk, so I did a lot of their food. It was food and lifestyle mixed together. I can imagine those clean ceramic plates with some... freshly foraged items. Ken Folk was such a moment in time of what it looked like. It was. It made my career, I have to say. Really? It did, yeah. I got a full-time design job. I wasn't planning to be a food person. I just started to, they started to contact with me through my blog. It was like, I was a blogger, you know, like blogger era. Okay. And they found me there. And then I started to work on all of their issues. And also like when they would have events in Brooklyn, I would do, you know, do the food. So that's how I started doing food actually. So you were just a hobbyist with a job and then Kim Folk fucked around and changed your life. They did. They did. How do you feel about it though? Do you wish you were a designer? I always miss.

that like stability of that job but it's been so long and i've done so many other things and gotten to travel and like you know just um yeah i fell into something else it's still the visual side of food if you think about it it's design related no i've always been told from anyone that i know that's made a cookbook like the the photography of the food is is the hardest part almost oh yeah It can be. Or at least requires the most kind of, you know what I mean? You can't just be in the lab yourself figuring it out. There has to be a team of people there to kind of get it done. Yeah, you need some help for sure. But I ended up shooting a lot of the food in my new book. um yeah it was i've just done it for so long so and also that way you don't have to pay a photographer exactly i had a feeling i had a feeling i had a feeling i was gonna come well yeah the budgets have gotten smaller so teams are smaller and you kind of have to be able to do everything now like to get a deal you still have to have an instagram account or you know you have to be active on social it's It's not enough to just be a good food writer. No, definitely not. The problem is in any field at this point, it's not good enough to be good at the thing. You have to do... Especially writing, as every writer now has to do a TikTok hosting gig. It's just what it is. Just to keep their job. I think that's the big shift, is that if you work at a legacy publication, it's sort of understood that you have to be a certain... active in a certain way on social media i think we all have to be editors now not just the editor exactly you can't just sit in front of the computer and do your work and go home you have but the problem with that in my opinion is people will focus on becoming famous first and then focus on becoming good at the thing second because that doesn't matter as much anymore yeah it feels like the people that are true craftsmen that are like really good at the one thing If they're not good at social media, they're never going to get a chance. And that's been a bummer to see. But I think it also, you use the tools around you. You have a phone. You can make it happen. You don't need as much as, I think, when I was first starting in food. Back then, you kind of had to make your way up.

through magazines, through the level. There was no other option. I think during the pandemic is when I really realized, whoa, there are these superstars coming out, like Pierce Abernathy, coming out of nowhere that are just really engaging people. Yeah, he's real engaging. That's what all the ladies say about Pierce. I saw him cooking shirtless. It was engaging, to say the least. I don't know. about what he's making most of the time but nobody does i understand so you're saying you've never seen his scallops that are mushrooms or something i've had pierce's food a few times and it's delicious but i agree i'm also distracted by his hair and chest you know i can't i can't be bob i can't be bothered pierce is the only guy who's saying hey eyes down here the food's getting cold exactly babe why aren't you eating exactly but i mean i guess the problem i mean it has gotten much easier to create this content and become, you know, that person. But it hasn't gotten easier to want to have to do that for a lot of people. And I think that's going to be the next hurdle. Yeah. I think that, yeah, with books, it... Sometimes it feels like it's just merch now for someone's, like, personal brand. It doesn't feel like the – Oh, that's 100% what it is. Yeah, but that's so sad. I love books. It's a business card. Yeah, I learned to cook through books. That's why I, like, really want it. Well, I think that's why cookbooks are still, you know, they actually sell and can break through in, like, an Alison Roman way where it's like – that is it's so baked in no pun intended to that culture like there's no replacement for that really i mean there is but like having your ipad open to the new york times cooking app in the kitchen isn't as sexy as cracking your your volume and kind of going to the recipe you want to use and i think that also i believe because there's so many elements in the kitchen and you don't want to damage your smart device

that a book is the perfect answer. You don't want to get any of that stock. A cookbook covered in stains over the years. You don't want that hot stock all over your iPad mini. I would say having the iPad open on the New York Times cooking page. That is currently the sexiest way to do it now that we have TikTok and YouTube and Instagram and blah, blah, blah. I see what you're saying. That is the new version of cookbooks being up, and that's the best possible scenario. I mean, eventually, as the attention spans dwindle more, it'll be audio cookbooks. Oh, wow. Is that where you think it's going? That's where I'd like to go. track though like of where you're at don't you need images or at least are people used to seeing images yeah people are used to images and also the measurements are such a big part of it look we i'm we're we're on the precipice apple vision pro you know what i mean like it's we the exponential evolution of all this in in two years there's going to be something where it's just going to project the muffin on your wall and you're going to ai is going to say like oh did you is Did you measure the exact baking soda amount? We shouldn't eyeball the baking soda. We should measure it by weight, you know, whatever. I'm not proud of this, but I'm realizing, talking to you both, that I've never used a cookbook in my life. Ever? I've had plenty sent to me, and I've read them and looked at them, and I appreciate them as objects, but I've never opened one and used a recipe from it. Is it just too intimidating? I just don't cook, and I've never cooked, and I have no interest in it, but I know so many people who do it for a living, and obviously I do the show with Jason, who's an expert in his own right. So it's like I just feel like there's always somebody to do a better job than me. Yeah. You should give it a shot, you know, or take a class. You know, I'm going to teach cooking outside. You should come take a class. Oh, that'd be that'd be that'd be real fun. Participatory journalism, me camping and learning how to cook from you. Exactly. I want to do fire cooking outside. I can't even have mezcal. What the fuck am I going to do? This is not going to work. It's not going to work for me. You have a 35 millimeter camera, Chris. I do have the 35. There's a job for you. There's always a job. Do you think that do you think that the fire cooking could really?

take off in like a in like a home user way or do you think it's intimidating to people i think it's intimidating but one of the reasons i worked on this new book is because more people bought um fire pits during the pandemic and like didn't know what to do with them so people have them in their yards but they're just not making food over them so that was one of the like yeah goals for the that's actually really that's actually really smart yeah we worked backwards on this there's like data so fuck it let's pander to these people that have you found a hole to fill they spent they spent three grand now that we're Yeah, they spend three grand on their smokeless fire pit. And their wife is saying, why don't we sell that on Facebook Marketplace? And you said, hold on, hold on. Hold on, I have just a solution. Hold on, I've been marinating some pork chops for this very occasion. Yeah, exactly. And also, you know, with the rise of protein cookery. This feels like it's aligned with the sort of primal alpha male angle of me want meat, me want protein, me cook over the fire like the caveman's did. Yeah, there's this huge caveman thing right now. I don't know. What do you guys think about how tallow has made a huge comeback with beauty and food? I get videos of this ASMR guy rubbing tallow on his face. And then he sprays extreme amounts of cologne on as well. It's a great... I can't remember what it's called. It's great. He's the person who introduced me to tallow on the face. I didn't know that was a thing. This brand sent me tallow SPF and I wore it out to dinner. Then I ate tallow fried tortilla chips, and I was just so beefy. I felt like I was swimming in it, and my dog went crazy when I put it on. He was like, ooh. He gets bones on his birthday, so he's used to that smell. Okay. I'm in Palm Springs right now. It's 109. If I put on the tallow SPF and do my fireman carries out there.

It's going to start smelling like a Noma pop-up out here. People are going to be lining up at their plates like, what is that? Is that ostrich cooking over there? I mean, I think my opinion on the tallow is we got so afraid, and rightfully so, of seed oil. Yeah. The seed scare of 2022 or whatever, that we were so turned off by that, that we ran so far in the opposite direction that we're like, yeah, I'll rub. animal fat on my face like that's where we're at and there are pros to it i love a properly cooked beef tallow fry but sometimes you know i just had a beef tallow crouton at uh at mini kebab they have a chicken caesar wrap and a beef tallow crouton it's delicious but it's also you know it it sort of crosses the line of of richness where you know like some things you're like Can we just have some olive oil here, Twin? Yeah, it's a little greasy. I don't need everything to have that sort of... Because when tallow solidifies, it creates a sensation that can be odd and off-putting. Yeah, it's a little waxy. It's a little waxy. It's a little slaughterhouse. It's giving slaughterhouse. Don't talk about Royce da 5-9 like that, Jason. Do not bring that up. All right, Diana, thank you for joining us today. Fire Pit Feast, you can get this wherever cookbooks are sold, correct? Yes. Thank you so much, guys. Such an honor. No, it was fun. Thank you for joining us. And if I ever decide to camp, I'll let you know. Yes, I'd love to take you, guys. We need to see if you can get Hellman's or something. to fly out get get molly baz's mayonnaise company to fly chris may out to oh hi okay and we'll do a little uh outdoor cooking sesh i'll see if i can master the the grilled romaine or something yes let's do it that sounds fun thanks anna we'll see you soon have a good one later